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  1. Ignore me!

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    Default Buddy & Thein triangles, are they worth it?

    Ok, so the big question is: Buddy & Thein triangles, are they worth the astronomical price? After some searching I now know that the Grover Hand Hammered models are discontinued. However, some retailers do still have a few left in stock. Which one is the "one" to get?

    Please answer only if you have actual personal experience with these kinds of instruments. And yes, before you tell me to get a regular Grover super overtone, Black Swamp Artisan or Able model...I already have all of those.

    I'm also curious as to the quality of the Pearl PETB30 beater set. Is it possible for one of the nice Pearl guys to post up good quality close up photos of their products out of the little bag? Please? Could you also tell us a little about the materials used in their construction?

  2. Registered User

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marimba6
    Ok, so the big question is: Buddy & Thein triangles, are they worth the astronomical price? After some searching I now know that the Grover Hand Hammered models are discontinued. However, some retailers do still have a few left in stock. Which one is the "one" to get?

    Please answer only if you have actual personal experience with these kinds of instruments. And yes, before you tell me to get a regular Grover super overtone, Black Swamp Artisan or Able model...I already have all of those.

    I'm also curious as to the quality of the Pearl PETB30 beater set. Is it possible for one of the nice Pearl guys to post up good quality close up photos of their products out of the little bag? Please? Could you also tell us a little about the materials used in their construction?
    Avoid Pearl beaters. If you can FIND a Grover hammered, grab one. I have the 6" and get comments (positive).

  3. Ignore me!

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    Thanks for your input. Since the Hammered Grovers are 1/4 the price of the Buddy & Thein I'll order one of those straight away.

    Anybody else have personal experience with the B&T's?

  4. Pearl/Adams Sr. Marketing Mgr

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    Default Buddy & Thein

    I have a lot of personal experience with the B&T triangles... and I can tell you they are worth every single penny. It is an amazing group of instruments -- each one as fantastic as finding the "perfect " ride cymbal, you honestly will hear never listen to the triangle the same way again. The 10 mm thick models x 9 inches and smaller are the most popular and have a fantastic shimmer and sustain. are These instruments have been used in almost every major orchestra in the USA and Europe for almost 10 years, not to mention countless film and TV soundtrack recordings. The really amazing thing is knowing that people that are lucky enough to have one, often end up getting a 2nd and a 3rd in different sizes, and recommend them to their friends. The price is a daunting barrier - but save your pennies...and dimes... and quarters... and get one.

    Another great sounding instrument is the hammered Sabian triangle series - -a fraction of the cost but with a very musical sound and shimmer that records very well and works for solo, band , and orchestral enesembles.

    As far as the PETB30 Pearl beater set goes - this is a very decent set of beaters. The brass mallet heads gives a softer attack, and the 3 weights allow you to match the part, to the instrument, to the hall very well. Get 2 sets and you'll have pairs for the fast rhythmic passgaes too. I'll work on getting an image up for you guys to see as well!
    Last edited by Shawn Lafrenz; 05-08-2008 at 09:12 PM. Reason: incomplete sentence.
    Shawn Lafrenz
    Pearl Corporation Education Division
    Senior Marketing Manager
    Concert / Adams Product Manager

  5. Ignore me!

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    Shawn, thanks for your input. I have been searching for a long time, trying to figure out exactly what triangle it is that is able to make that magical sound that you do hear so often in movie soundtracks and on some of my orchestral recordings. I'm currently playing in a group that plays movie soundtracks almost exclusively. I went ahead and ordered the Grover hand-hammered model I located, and will go ahead and scrape together the cash to get a Buddy & Thein.

    I'm still interested in the PETB30 beater sets...at their price point I can buy 2 sets. How long is the beater face? Please do post up a picture when you find the time.

    If all else fails, I'll hopefully be able to see all of those products at PASIC.

  6. Registered User

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    Pearl PETB30 beaters are nice but definately not the best thing out there. On a standard 6" Abel they seem to pull out the fundamental but not a lot of overtones. They are loud and heavy sounding. For doing Wagner type pieces they are great, but I really recommend using the Black Swamp Spectrum Beaters. I've attached some pics of both. You can see that the BS has a wider beater edge. It also pulls more overtones out of the triangle and gives more of a shimmer sound and less of a forcefull dinging sound like the Pearls. If you can afford it, get the Pearls and the BS Spectrums as well as some standard steel or brass. If you have to choose just one, get the BS Spectrum.
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  7. Ignore me!

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    Wow, Ehrin. Thanks for the pics and your impression of the sound of the Pearl beaters. Right now, I'm actually using sets of the Black Swamp Spectrum Beaters and the Tubular-face Grover beaters. I stopped using straight rod type beaters long ago due to their unusual ability to make any triangle produce a fixed fundamental pitch.

    Do you think the Black Swamp beater is bronze and the Pearl beater is just straight up brass? Brass is harder than Bronze isn't it? My spectrum beaters now have multitudes of tiny dents all over them. Maybe this difference in hardness results in the sound quality you describe? Or, maybe the addition of the rubber handle on the Spectrum beater works to isolate the beater somehow and soften the attack sound? Hard to know. Have you ever tried to put a bit of rubber tubing on one of the Pearl beaters and see if/how that affects the sound?

    Right now I'm using 2 different triangle set-ups: Black Swamp 6" Artisan on the Black Swamp "clippy" triangle clip with Black Swamp Spectrum beaters and a 6" Grover super overtone model (I had this triangle cryogenically treated like 10 years ago) on a Steve Weiss wooden triangle clip and Grover tubular beaters. I also have a 6" Abel...but haven't used it in like 2 years. It produces an almost perfect bell-note like C-sharp no matter what you strike it with.

    I'm really still interested in the Buddy & Thein triangles, because well, sometimes I feel that the instruments I'm currently using sound too "one-notey". I really want instruments that create more overtones to better blend in with the ensemble and produce superior shimmer.

  8. Registered User

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    I see alot of players starting to use the Grover Pro Bronze. I recently saw Airto playing and he had the whole set. They sounded excellent.

    I do not like the heavy ended beaters. I prefer the "rod type".

  9. Ignore me!

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    Well, as far as beaters go...to each his own. I have two past students who now attend the University of North Texas and they both swear to me that rod type beaters are "banned" from use in performances there. I'll bet I have not personally used a rod type beater in 10 years or so (since the Grover tubular beaters became widely available). Of course the high-school I teach at has a set of the Grover 303 rod beaters. The kids play on those 90% of the time and then a few weeks before concert contest I pass out the better quality triangles, beaters and tambourines for them to use.

    Anyway, I think I'm good on triangle beaters...who can post close-up photos of Buddy& Thein triangles along with a sound file?

  10. Registered User

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    I don't have a B&T triangle but I may put in for one at my job. If they're really that good we should get one or two. As for overtone production on an Abel, I'm not sure how you're only getting the fundemental. That triangle is very easy to produce good overtones on. Here's Neil Grover's idea of the perfect triangle stroke:

    STROKE
    The triangle should never be played when mounted on a music stand. It should always be held at eye level and struck on the bottom leg with a motion that "pushes away" the bottom leg. This method will produce the maximum overtone sonority. A triangle sound full of overtones will blend with other instruments. Remember, a triangle is a non-pitched instrument and should have a very lush array of overtones, it should not sound like a bell!


    If that's not working for you, try hitting the triangle on the bottom leg at a 45 degree angle like so...
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  11. Ignore me!

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    Hehe, yes, thanks Ehrin. I play in a local orchestra, 2 wind bands in the Austin area and have taught percussion for 15 years in middle school and high school band settings. Since about 1/2 of my yearly income comes from writing marching band shows and teaching percussion, I hope I'm pretty sure about how to play the triangle in ways that allow me to produce a wetter sound full of overtones and a more direct articulate sound with less overtones by varying the placement of beaters and the angle of attack. (Ehrin, please don't take offense, I'm just giving you a hard time. It's not my intention to offend you. We are having a very serious discussion of a very misunderstood instrument, and I'm enjoying speaking with someone who is as committed as I to producing good quality sounds)

    I'm saying that in a general sense Abel triangles are the most direct sounding (not a lot of overtones produced) of all of the commercially available models. In my opinion, the Abel models are the most one-notey sounding. I've spent a lot of time around a lot of triangles and have come to that general conclusion. If you have a Grover or Black Swamp triangle laying around try all three out using the same beater and stroke. You will then understand what I'm speaking of.

    What I'm looking for specifically is the triangle that produces the least fundamental pitch and the most overtones...The following is taken from the Grover Pro Percussion website and was written by Dr. Stuart Marrs:

    As part of an ensemble, the humble triangle becomes integrally involved in an aspect of acoustics known as "summation of amplitudes." This means that the volume of pitches that are in phase (in tune) with other sounding frequencies add their volume on top of the others while the volume of the notes that are "out of tune" remains soft. If a triangle sound has few pitches, it has less chance of being "in tune" with the prevailing harmonic structure. A triangle sound more abundant in pitches will always cut through and sound as if it is in tune with the prevailing harmony. Imagine an instrument that automatically plays in tune! A triangle played with the "good sound" accompanying a series of harmonic changes sounds as if it is changing pitches with the chords.

    Now that you know how to produce the different sounds try a little experiment. Have a friend play a series of chord progressions on the piano while you play the triangle (the good sound) in the same rhythm. Listen to the triangle seemingly change its pitches to match the chords! The technique of striking the triangle at an acute angle to its plane extends to roll technique. Instead of rolling with the beater perpendicular to the corner of the triangle, try moving the wrist down and away from the corner while you are rolling. Listen to the dramatic increase in fullness of sound. The beater is striking the triangle at an acute angle to its plane.

    The entire article can be found here: http://www.groverpro.com/techtalk.htm for those others who may be interested. What I'm hoping is that either the Grover Hammered triangles or the Buddy & Thein models produce this kind of sound character intrinsically.
    Last edited by Marimba6; 05-10-2008 at 01:04 PM.

  12. Registered User

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    I'm wasn't trying to insult anyone's intelligence. There are people on this forum who are just starting out and really need to know the correct way to play. I was told for years to hit a triangle straight on the side opposite the opening for years. It wasn't untill I started reading Grover's stuff and listening for myself that I had to change my thinking and my playing. Even at my level I run in to a number of people who don't care enough to take the time and learn the proper way to play triangle or tambourine. What's funny is those two instruments are the two I end up playing the most consistantly. That TechTalk site is amazing. The stuff Cristiano Pirola has on there is invaluable, especially the finger rolls. I almost never use thumb rolls anymore. I highly recommend learing that technique.
    RBH Monarch Drums in Merlot Sparkle
    RBH Westwood Drums in Green Sparkle

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