Answers to your microphone questions and more...

[thismercifulfate]

Absolutely fantastic TMF!
Well worth the read and listen.

Am I wrong in viewing this thread as mikes and recording in a relatively controlled environment?
Can you tell me/us how this may be related to live reproduction please...

You wouldn't be wrong at all. I'm on the studio side of audio engineering 99% of the time. However, that doesn't mean that none of this applies to Live sound.

One of the big things in live sound for mics is their gain-before-feedback. Take for instance condenser mics will be extremely funnicky in small live venues, because how sensitive they are and their high-end extension makes them very prone to feeding back. Dynamic mics are the king here for a good reason. You probably won't need overheads mics on a kit in a smaller venue - both because the cymbals will project well enough on their own in the space, and because using condenser mics would be a feedback nightmare. Live sound is a whole different beast. You have to take into consideration many more sources of bleed and potential feedback like the mains, monitors; you often have few options for positioning the instruments around and you are working in untreated rooms of various shapes and sizes. And then there are soundmen....

Pretty much all that I've gone over so far is simply knowledge. Having it will lead you to make different decisions for live sound than you would make in a studio recording environment. For instance you'll know now why using lots of omni mics probably won't be a good idea for a live concert. Mic selection and positioning are some of the best tools for either place, and will give you options and also make your life more easy. Overall many subtleties get lost in live sound... like the difference between using an SM57 or an i5 on your snare. And during an event you don't have time to make tiny adjustments or shootout mics... whereas in the studio, although time is money, you'll often afford yourself to take the time to tend to small details, because you want to get your money's worth and go for the best sound. In live sound, it's simply gotta work from the start on and you shouldn't have to worry much about it.

[3pearlkits]

Thanks TMF.
I am trying putting together a PA to cover not only our 5 piece band (drums, gut, bass, Keys and gut, Vox), and also my local school who historically has probs with little children and projection for performance. Even though you have said that the signal chain is best left as clean as possible, does this automatically leave room for gates etc in live reproduction. Given your comment about being able to tell the difference between various mikes in a live situation, are there "go to " mikes for live music? So many questions lol, but the school seems keen on lapel mikes, I've suggested that "shotgun" type mikes may be better value and easier to control than multiple lapel mikes for the school, for dramatic presentations anyway. Do you have any suggestions for sound reinforcement here?
In years gone by, I was quite used to having Senheiser's on toms, a SM 57 on snare, an AKG D112 on kick, SM 57's on gut amps, SM 58 on Vox etc etc.
Nowadays the Senheiser's are gone and seem to be replaced by and large with SM57's ,the 58 is a 58 Beta etc etc
Is this all good?

[A7X_EXPORT]

May I post a link to this thread on my "recording workshop" blog (once I start it up)?

[thismercifulfate]

Thanks TMF.
I am trying putting together a PA to cover not only our 5 piece band (drums, gut, bass, Keys and gut, Vox), and also my local school who historically has probs with little children and projection for performance. Even though you have said that the signal chain is best left as clean as possible, does this automatically leave room for gates etc in live reproduction. Given your comment about being able to tell the difference between various mikes in a live situation, are there "go to " mikes for live music? So many questions lol, but the school seems keen on lapel mikes, I've suggested that "shotgun" type mikes may be better value and easier to control than multiple lapel mikes for the school, for dramatic presentations anyway. Do you have any suggestions for sound reinforcement here?
In years gone by, I was quite used to having Senheiser's on toms, a SM 57 on snare, an AKG D112 on kick, SM 57's on gut amps, SM 58 on Vox etc etc.
Nowadays the Senheiser's are gone and seem to be replaced by and large with SM57's ,the 58 is a 58 Beta etc etc
Is this all good?

I have to be honest and say I'm probably not the best guy to ask about live sound stuff, but I'll do my best to answer your questions. If you need to use gates for whatever reason, go for it. Yes, there are a lot of 'go to' mics for live sound, but that doesn't mean you absolutely have to use those mics. If you just have a few individuals, as in main characters for a musical or something, then it's probably fine putting lapel mics on each of them. For a choir or something, get a pair of condenser mics over or in front of them, but this could be tricky depending on your set up, stage/room etc... I've never seen shotgun mics being used for this kind of situation. With my limited experience with them I will tell you that they probably wouldn't be ideal for any kind of area miking, like a group of kids, and I have no idea if they would be a feedback nightmare with a PA or not, but instinct tells me they would be.

Yeah, you see a lot of Shures everywhere, but I also see Sennheiser and others. The brand doesn't really matter... Shure, Sennheiser, EV, Audio Technica, Heil and others allo make great dynamic microphones for live use. I think the D112 works great for kick and bass cab live, also in the studio, but there are plenty of comparable mics too. Shure gets picked a lot because they are the most well-known brand by far, and also are the most widely-available in stores, not because they make superior products across the board. Their products are quite fine, just as all others I mentioned.

May I post a link to this thread on my "recording workshop" blog (once I start it up)?

Yeah of course you can, Send me a link when you do!

[Gord The Drummer]

I've never seen shotgun mics being used for this kind of situation. With my limited experience with them I will tell you that they probably wouldn't be ideal for any kind of area miking, like a group of kids, and I have no idea if they would be a feedback nightmare with a PA or not, but instinct tells me they would be.

Shotgun mics are great if you want to hear one person. Not too sure about feeback, but they shouldn't really have many issues.

I know when we've had drummers who can't not hit a mic (seewhatididthar?) we used a shotgun above the drummer to capture the snare. They are so precise that it could be tuned to pretty much only pick up the snare.

As for Shure being common, I think this has more to do with how durable they are. You drop a 57 and provided you don't break the capsule off it keeps working just like new. There aren't many other mics that can boast that. It has nothing to do with sound as far as I can tell, and everything to do with durability. The Shure mics pretty much sound the same no matter what you do to them, and because they are so popular people know exactly what to do with them and what to expect sound-wise as well. This speeds things up with different sound people, as they all know the 57.

[otb]

You, sir, are super-awesome for posting all that information!

This was a great and very informative read and the blind mic shootout was actually very entertaining - I did exactly as you suggested and wrote down my thoughts as I was listening to the files. As for the stereo techniques, I was blown away by how natural the Recorderman technique sounded - the sound was really realistic and the all the instruments from the kit had a pretty full, natural sound. I'm really curious about your own observations and hope to read them soon.

[thismercifulfate]

You, sir, are super-awesome for posting all that information!

This was a great and very informative read and the blind mic shootout was actually very entertaining - I did exactly as you suggested and wrote down my thoughts as I was listening to the files. As for the stereo techniques, I was blown away by how natural the Recorderman technique sounded - the sound was really realistic and the all the instruments from the kit had a pretty full, natural sound. I'm really curious about your own observations and hope to read them soon.

Hey thanks! I was hoping more users would share their observations first. I'm reluctant to post my own observations and opinions, because I don't want to create expectations or cause prejudice for anyone before they have a listen and have formed their own opinions.

I will say though that I'm also a huge fan of Recorderman! I got turned on to it by forum member drumbug (great guy and drummer!), who used to post a lot of home recordings of him playing, recorded with just a couple of mics.

[Gord The Drummer]

Notes for Mics:

Snare 1 - I won't mention the mic name here so as to spoil the surprise; but obviously the mic type that it is. It seems to be missing a lot of mids in general, with bottom and high end. I can see why people like this mic, as it has that 'classic' 70's snare voice. This mic is heavily coloured.

Snare 2 - This one is a little more interesting. Some clues in the frequency response elude to what mic type it is. I would take this one over snare mic 1 because it has a much more natural sound. The frequency balance is much better without too much bottom like snare mic 1. This mic has very much less colouration of the sound.

Snare 3 - This mic is a shocker for what it is. My impression of this mic: I'd never use it, ever. It is missing frequencies all over the place and has a bump in the lower mids making it sound nasal-y. It has a lot of much higher frequencies, and not enough high frequencies to make it sound natural. My biggest problem with this mic is that you are blatantly listening to a snare that is mic'd. If this mic was less coloured it would be useful, but I am not a fan at all.

Snare 4 - This mic is fairly predictable if you have used it before. It colours the sound a bit, but is still cleaner than mics 1 and 3.

My choices for mics I would use based on sound only: mics 2 and 4. Considering I have only ever used mic 4 out of the mics listed, this isn't surprising. The other mics are just too coloured for me, given what the drum would sound like if you were in the room with it.

[The Kurgan]

Most the links in this thread are gone, so are most the pics.....is it just me or did something happen?

[thismercifulfate]

Most the links in this thread are gone, so are most the pics.....is it just me or did something happen?

I recently lost access to some server space that I used to have available to me free of charge.

[The Kurgan]

bummer, I've been reading though the thread here and there trying to figure out what i need to start some basic home recording......Your thread and knowledge have been helpful. I hope your able to fix the links eventually. Maybe pearl could help out with that?