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View Full Version : Number of lugs... plus hoops in general



WhatIsIt
12-28-2017, 09:06 PM
Alright. I've been playing drums for 25 years, or 17 years or something in between depending on how you count it. First self-taught, then regular lessons for about 2 years, playing in bands etc. But I have never gotten into the details, like shell thicknesses, hoop types, hoop thicknesses etc. For the last 16 years, I have had one drum set, which is a Pearl MLX set from '84 or '85. When I've seen "die cast hoops" and this or that being discussed in magazines I've really just thought "whatever, I have the set I happen to have and that's what I'm going to play on".

I very recently decided to get another set, and as it happens it is a Decade Maple set, 20/10/12/14 (and prossibly a 16 later, they're out of stock now). Since I've been so fortunate to have a professional level set from so early on, I've never HAD to wonder about any of this stuff. But now... I guess I should try to understand some of these things.

What difference does any of it make? The MLX's have 2.3 mm SuperHoops, the Decades have '1.6 mm triple-flanged' hoops. What does that mean? Does that alone make a drum sound different? Does that make them more difficult to tune or make them go out of tune easier? Are they going to bend or break?

The Decade floor toms, even the 16" one has only 6 lugs (the MLX one has 8). What's the difference there? Is that alone going to make it excessively difficult or impossible to get the tuning right?

If thicker/stronger hoops would be a significant improvement in some way, where would I get them? Who makes 2.3 mm 16" hoops with only 6 lugs?

A couple of questions there. Help and information is much appreciated.

notoriousRJD
12-29-2017, 05:57 AM
The thinner 1.6mm hoops will allow the heads to vibrate more, which will open them up a but. Theoretically the thicker hoops will hold tuning better. The 8 lugs, as opposed to 6, will give more even tension across the head (less space between each lug) and will give you more tuning range.

WhatIsIt
12-29-2017, 09:53 AM
The thinner 1.6mm hoops will allow the heads to vibrate more, which will open them up a but. Theoretically the thicker hoops will hold tuning better. The 8 lugs, as opposed to 6, will give more even tension across the head (less space between each lug) and will give you more tuning range.

Can you elaborate a bit, especially about that last one? Where would the larger tuning range come from?

I would guess that in general a (otherwise identical) thicker hoop will simply be STRONGER, so it won't bend or be otherwise affected as easily because of tension. But why would the amount of lugs matter in any other matter than providing more possibility for fine tuning?

notoriousRJD
12-29-2017, 01:05 PM
More lugs, more tuning points...finer tuning. Yes, thicker hoops are stronger. It will affect the sound...in fact if you really wanna be picky about it, even the thinner hoop itself will resonate more than a thicker hoop and produce a different sound....as will steel vs brass hoops producing a different "ring". Really depends on what you are playing and the sound you are looking for. I think, in general, most people probably wouldnt appreciate some of the differences but there are definite effects caused by the lug count and hoop thickness.

quicksticks
12-31-2017, 03:20 PM
It’s more than just finer tuning. The more lugs on a drum, the less important each individual lug becomes as the space between tension rods is reduced. The closer the lugs are to each other, the chances of the hoop flexing is reduced.
Thicker hoops are stronger and less likely to flex between tension rods. The exception would be Pearl’s Fat Tone hoops. They are 1.6 mm hoops, but the top of the hoop is rolled and welded to give them stregth and reduced weight.
I also think that you’re underestimating the people on this form. I think most would absolutely be aware of hoop thickness and number of lugs.

WhatIsIt
12-31-2017, 10:02 PM
This is all good information, and I do appreciate you taking the time. However this is all much too theoretical at least for my needs. I understand the principles of what a hoop is and how it works. What I'd like to know is what kind of a difference does it make in reality, in practice. To go back to the last part of my first post:


The Decade floor toms, even the 16" one has only 6 lugs (the MLX one has 8). What's the difference there? Is that alone going to make it excessively difficult or impossible to get the tuning right?

If thicker/stronger hoops would be a significant improvement in some way, where would I get them? Who makes 2.3 mm 16" hoops with only 6 lugs?

I've had a little time to actually play the set now and I don't foresee a big problem with the durability, I'm not THAT heavy-handed and actually rarely play rimshots now that I think of it. I haven't noticed anything drastic with the tuning either.

The biggest concern in my eyes is the 16" tom with only 6 lugs (and a thin hoop). Will it be a problem? I think I actually saw someone here (on this sub-forum) suggesting that if they got the Decade set, they would replace the hoops with stronger ones. I think that is something to consider, but I've been browsing online stores and I haven't found ANY sort of a 16" hoop with only 6 lugs on sale. So, do they even exist?

Tasty808
01-01-2018, 04:10 AM
Drum Factory Direct. One of the best sources for drum parts.

Here's your 16", 6 hole hoops,

https://www.drumfactorydirect.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_7_8&products_id=2007

WhatIsIt
01-04-2018, 12:55 AM
Cool, they exist. Unfortunately for me though, I live very far away from Pittsburgh... and there's even a little bit of water inbetween. The shipping costs would probably be pretty disproportionate for one or two hoops. I wonder if some place closer imports stuff from there...

On a sidenote: those 6-hole hoops were not probably made specifically for mid-range Pearl Decade sets from 2016 on. Was there a time, maybe way back, where 6 lugs for a 16" drum was something closer to a standard thing to do instead of something people scoff and laugh at?

malamikigo
01-04-2018, 01:17 AM
Cool, they exist. Unfortunately for me though, I live very far away from Pittsburgh... and there's even a little bit of water inbetween. The shipping costs would probably be pretty disproportionate for one or two hoops. I wonder if some place closer imports stuff from there...



Just stock up on your favourite drumsticks on the same order. It's free shipping over $99. 2 hoops + 7-8 pairs of drum sticks and you're there.

WhatIsIt
01-04-2018, 04:07 AM
The banner only says free shipping for continental US... the site doesn't say how much the shipping would be for anyplace else, I'm guessing because it varies hugely depending on things. I would also almost bet that there would be some sort of extra tax/customs BS...

I don't know. I don't live that far from a drum builder who I think makes his own hardware, maybe he could make me some luxury hoops for my Pearl Decade toms. How'd that be for stupid? :D

quicksticks
01-04-2018, 10:51 AM
The banner only says free shipping for continental US... the site doesn't say how much the shipping would be for anyplace else, I'm guessing because it varies hugely depending on things. I would also almost bet that there would be some sort of extra tax/customs BS...

I don't know. I don't live that far from a drum builder who I think makes his own hardware, maybe he could make me some luxury hoops for my Pearl Decade toms. How'd that be for stupid? :D

Where exactly do you live? I think the idea of having “luxury custom hoops” made would far exceed the cost of two hoops from DFD plus shipping. If your drum builder isn’t set up for making a 16” six lug hoop, the costs of tooling up, making, and plating those custom hoops would far exceed the cost of your floor tom. In as much as you asked, I think the idea is very stupid.

WhatIsIt
01-04-2018, 03:46 PM
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quicksticks
01-04-2018, 06:00 PM
Do you work for Google or do you spy for a government? (smiley face if needed)



I think your logic is basically correct. You have broken down the process of hoop manufacturing to it's individual component stages. By doing that, you've made it more apparent that it is a complex process and very expensive compared even to the monetary value of the entire drum. It's easy to be inclined to think you're right in your assertion that getting "luxury custom hoops" made is very stupid.

But you probably would be VERY surprised at how big shipping costs can be. A while ago I was looking at car parts on eBay and thought: oh, that looks like the right one and it's dirt cheap as well. Then a closer look revealed the total cost would be way too much, mainly because about 3/4 of it would be shipping costs and the like. Most US companies do not ship overseas at all, definitely not to private citizens, because they don't really need to and it at least used to be, I guess, just an unnecessary hassle. I do wish places like DFD and such had some kind of, official or semi-official, international contacts through which you could order their stuff. The drummers among the 500+ million people living relatively close to me would most certainly appreciate having that as a REALISTIC option when looking for drum gear!

P. S. I never said the hoops needed to be "custom"! Just luxury. (smiley if needed)

I’m not a government spy, nor do I work for Google. I only asked because you said that shipping costs would be very high. Many of us on the PDF have shipped drums and cymbals to members outside of the US. I sent several cymbals to one of our member in New Zealand a while back. I think you’ll find that many on the PDF are happy to help a fellow drummer outside of the US.

Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about the hoops on the 16” tom. While I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t think a heavier hoop is really necessary on a drum that isn’t tensioned very tightly.

WhatIsIt
01-04-2018, 08:13 PM
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WhatIsIt
01-05-2018, 11:36 PM
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Cheez_Whiz
01-06-2018, 04:59 PM
P. S. you can google search 'the old world', it will give you a partial hint as to where I live.
You live in the 15th century? ;)

dale w miller
01-07-2018, 05:54 AM
I believe many people here are helpful and kind, I've already seen that.

Since you've been "drumming since 1961", you're obviously from a different generation. Depending on how young you were when you started, it's possible you could (age-wise of course) be my GRANDFATHER. So you see things differently.

I lived my childhood and early adulthood in a time when the Internet was constantly growing, and finally exploded. It couldn't be foreseen. But I've seen first hand what kind of damage can be done online. I know a guy who was videoed/photographed doing "stupid" stuff and boom, it was instantly on YouTube (with his full name along with some nonsense, made-up things about him) and everyone was laughing at him. Then the same guys responsible for that decided to start bugging ME, for example taking videos/photos/audio clips of me and editing/subtitling/etc. them to make me look stupid... and post the videos on my WORKPLACES FACEBOOK page. (by the way, these were two adults, round about 30 years old... with a preference for drinking expensive whiskey/wine imported shadily to avoid taxes)

I can't trust people who live a walking distance away from me to NOT use my personal information wrong... so I'm just purposely being a little bit vague about who I am, what I do etc. wherever I am on the Internet. It is definitely NOT meant to convey sincere mistrust or anything like that, more of like a habit of mine.

P. S. you can google search 'the old world', it will give you a partial hint as to where I live.

I’ve been someone who has been open about myself and doing so has lead me to making some good friends and meeting & getting to know others. I do keep my Facebook page fairly private unless I know you personally as I speak of things not necessarily taken lightly by some as well I post pictures of my family.

I will say I’m grateful that all the immature & idiotic things I did have no permanent record outside photos that an old friend has. I remember all of these “Priceless “ photos being passed around via email of people ending up in some pretty embarrassing situations usually due to them being extremely drunk. The Star Wars Kid comes to mind as well. He was the first I remember and I wonder if it haunts still today. That was extremely rough. Everyone jumped on that bullying opportunity.

I have videotaped myself and friends doing things, but being I’m the one who owned the camera, I’m the one who owns the tapes. I’m in the middle of editing them down now. I think it’ll be neat for my family to see what I was like when I was younger. I always wondered about my grandparents and parents and I will let my kids see me within reason when they are older.

WhatIsIt
01-08-2018, 04:53 AM
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quicksticks
01-08-2018, 02:42 PM
Let’s see, you pretend to be someone other than yourself on FB, you don’t want people to know where you live for fear of incriminating information being disseminated about you, and you are suspicious that people on a drum forum might be working for the government. You sound like a real delight.

WhatIsIt
01-08-2018, 11:55 PM
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Drumming-4-Life
01-09-2018, 06:05 AM
Why would I not be a "delight"?

You're only 50 posts into your tenure here on the PDF, and apparently others find you irksome. Myself, I tuned out of this thread immediately after reading your detailed engineering concerns about you entry level kit - that you don't even play.

MitchLyons
01-09-2018, 08:28 AM
You sound like I used to on this forum when I was 14. I was very annoying. Just buy the drums first and then worry about the hoops later if it's a problem. Don't worry about impressing people on a online forum, and stop over analyzing everything lol

quicksticks
01-09-2018, 09:05 AM
I did NOT at any point say there was "incriminating information" about ME! A lot of other people appear on those videos/photos/etc.

I think you're referring again to the earlier SPYING for a government (or some other entity). I don't see how just WORKING for the government would be bad, lots of people do that. In any case, I have no idea if you're being serious now. I thought the smiley face was enough from me to indicate that I do not actually think you are a spy.

A lot of people don't like me and some I can understand. But this, not really. Why would I not be a "delight"? Do you need to have my home address and passport photo to consider being friends?

Please allow me to be avuncular. When I asked where you lived, I wasn’t asking for a street address. A country or continent would have sufficed. When you stated that you pretend to be someone other than yourself on FB, is when you lost all credibility with me. Why would anyone start a FB account with the intention of misleading and deceiving people. I don’t require an address or passport of my friends. I do require integrity and honesty, both of which you seem to be lacking.

WhatIsIt
01-09-2018, 01:48 PM
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therocker
01-09-2018, 02:39 PM
Share some pictures of your kit. No need for personal info. Many times on here people ask " where you live?" Because there's a chance there is someone close ( like a drum shop ) to help you with your drum problems. Or it clarifies your shipping options. That's all.

There are times on FB that I wish I didn't know some if the people I know! :D

I've been on tape doing stupid stuff too. Thank god no one owns a VCR anymore.

As far as your " FRIENDS " posting stuff where your boss could possibly see it...that's not cool and they're probably not very good friends.

My 24 year old son deleted his FB account because he didn't want old college buddies posting party pictures with him tagged in it, now that he's in the work force.

Not that they did and not that he's worried about past experiences. More that it only takes one picture with a red solo cup in your hand & now your the biggest party animal ever.

And then your co workers are like....QUESTIONS!

quicksticks
01-09-2018, 03:08 PM
Please let me clarify something. I'm not trying to mislead or DECEIVE people, that's a strong word. I haven't started any account specifically to do that. I think I already said this, but it's purely that I'm being VAGUE about things that are not relevant to whatever is being discussed. That's all it is. I really don't understand why that is offensive to you.

I'm new to this forum, so what? What's wrong with asking technical questions about a Pearl set that I own, on the Pearl Drummers Forum?

Does anyone then think I now feel more like being open about myself when I get hostile responses and people telling me I'm 'irksome' and annoying? For what it's worth, I've had no bad intentions toward anyone here. None whatsoever.

“What you'd find on my Facebook page is not "the real me" but I meant it to be that way.”

First of all, this is the perfect place to ask drum related question. When I asked you where you live, I did so to possibly help you as The Rocker stated. Instead, I received a rather paranoid rant. My response was hardly hostile. With regards to your Facebook page, I’m just quoting you. Maybe I’m just an old fart with old values and principles, but I don’t understand why you would bother to have a FB account if it’s not the “real”you.

WhatIsIt
01-09-2018, 03:14 PM
“What you'd find on my Facebook page is not "the real me" but I meant it to be that way.”

First of all, this is the perfect place to ask drum related question. When I asked you where you live, I did so to possibly help you as The Rocker stated. Instead, I received a rather paranoid rant. My response was hardly hostile. With regards to your Facebook page, I’m just quoting you. Maybe I’m just an old fart with old values and principles, but I don’t understand why you would bother to have a FB account if it’s not the “real”you.

You weren't hostile, it was someone else who was annoyed by my asking "detailed engineering questions" about my "entry level set". What comes to that whole Facebook thing, I'd stress the "What you WOULD" find part of what I said. I use Facebook to communicate with my friends, and I don't post "misleading and deceiving" (or any) information about anything to the PUBLIC there. If you were my friend on Facebook, you WOULD probably be confused about my updates because you don't know me. That's all I meant.

WhatIsIt
01-13-2018, 08:27 PM
Share some pictures of your kit. No need for personal info. Many times on here people ask " where you live?" Because there's a chance there is someone close ( like a drum shop ) to help you with your drum problems. Or it clarifies your shipping options. That's all.

There are times on FB that I wish I didn't know some if the people I know! :D

I've been on tape doing stupid stuff too. Thank god no one owns a VCR anymore.

As far as your " FRIENDS " posting stuff where your boss could possibly see it...that's not cool and they're probably not very good friends.

My 24 year old son deleted his FB account because he didn't want old college buddies posting party pictures with him tagged in it, now that he's in the work force.

Not that they did and not that he's worried about past experiences. More that it only takes one picture with a red solo cup in your hand & now your the biggest party animal ever.

And then your co workers are like....QUESTIONS!

I neglected to say to you: thank you. Thank you for being understanding, I really do appreciate it.

I already explained, in too much detail, exactly why I want to be as vague as I am being online, including this forum. I'm very sure a lot of other people can understand where I'm coming from, and I HOPE it's clear that it's nothing specifically against you guys here. Like you said, no need for personal info. That I absolutely agree with, especially right here and right now.