PDA

View Full Version : Fat Tone rims Vs. Die Cast



zildjian2003
03-23-2012, 09:21 AM
Hey guys I was just reading through the new Pearl catalog and saw the Fat Tone rims in there. They look just like a triple flanged hoop. Am I right in this thinking? If not, what makes these better than the die-cast hoops?

Jutt8
03-23-2012, 10:41 AM
They took a 1.6 mm hoop and made like a fold over welded rim so you have a like a flexible lighter triple flanged hoop, but with a die cast "like" rim for wicked rim shots and cross sticks. That's how I understand it.

Not better than die cast, but different depending on what you like out your hoops and how they affect the sound that you get. It's preferential really, but giving the Reference Pure these hoops did lessen the weight of the drums which was part of the gripe with the original Reference drums. Everyone complained they were too heavy for active gigging musician.

Thrush
03-23-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm genuinely interested to hear the difference between DC and FT hoops, on the same drums with the same heads with the same tuning in the same room

Jutt8
03-23-2012, 12:53 PM
I'm genuinely interested to hear the difference between DC and FT hoops, on the same drums with the same heads with the same tuning in the same room

Perhaps the difference would be most easily picked up through micing the drums and recording them to see how the mic interprets it. Sometimes the naked ear plays strange tricks on us because of the room. It does to me anyway. I listen to recordings that I do and say to myself, **** these drums sound sick on this recording, Why am I not hearing them this way in the room?????? I'm just saying that I think the mic would be a more unbiased, more controlled way to test the difference at least for me.

Matt Flacche
03-23-2012, 01:06 PM
After listening to Mike Mangini's Reference Pure drums on the latest Dream Theater album, I thought they sounded fine, but no better than other recorded drummers I've heard recently. On a side note, Mangini's drums are so far back in the mix, it's hard to tell he's even there at times... lol

MusicMan
03-23-2012, 01:14 PM
Hi,

I agree with Jutt8 ...

I'm using both Fat Tone and Die Cast hoops on my kits and I don't notice much of a difference in sound.

The things I like about the Fat Tone hoops is that they are lighter, but still have the more modern appearance of a die cast hoop. I think this puts them in between a die cast hoop and a steel hoop in terms of their value and consideration as a "high end" feature.

It seems that Pearl deliberately introduced the Fat Tone hoops along with the lighter shells and hardware that characterize the Reference Pure series because they intended those hoops to represent a lighter alternative to the die cast hoops used on the original Reference series.

MM

Thrush
03-23-2012, 01:27 PM
I just wondered if they had the associated sound characteristics of Die Casts, just with less "choke" on the drums you often get with DC's (ie, not as dry; warmth and resonance of 1.6mm triple flange hoops, but strength and cut of DC's)

jgregory
03-23-2012, 07:25 PM
They were/are supposed to contribute to less mass hanging on the drum. This was supposed to allow the drum to resonate more freely. It's all about low mass with low mass hoops and low mass lugs. Or advertising hype. Either way I like the in turned flange. looks good, and easy(er) on sticks for what thats worth. I would SO have a reference pure kit if there were any good reason to have such a kit for me in my situation.
Die casts are very stiff and heavy though my mcx kit sounds anything but choked with them.

Rhythm Devil
03-24-2012, 09:44 AM
I'm curious if the Fat Tone contribute tone (ringgg) or if they are dead sounding like the die casts (clunk). Like when you strike the hoop only on the drum, does the drum make an "ahhh" sound or is like hitting a piece of wood? This is what I like about the tone of the Superhoops vs the dead sounding Mastercast.

Jutt8
03-24-2012, 02:00 PM
I'm curious if the Fat Tone contribute tone (ringgg) or if they are dead sounding like the die casts (clunk). Like when you strike the hoop only on the drum, does the drum make an "ahhh" sound or is like hitting a piece of wood? This is what I like about the tone of the Superhoops vs the dead sounding Mastercast.

I never experienced this dead or choked sound everyone talks about with diecast hoops. I actually think my drums sustain plenty with them. The major bonus I have found with diecast is how well the drums hold their tuning. I don't have fine tune nearly as much with them. On the contrary I'm always fine tuning my kit with flanged every other show we play. Maybe the thicker shell likes the cast better. I'll have try them on my thinner shelled kit and see what happens to those.

lovetheblues
03-24-2012, 03:21 PM
I don't think it is about weight. Triple-flanged hoops result in a more open drum than Die Cast, whereas die cast are more focussed. But not because of being lighter; because triple-flanged have slightly more give, so the tension in the middle of 2 lugs is slightly lower than at the lugs. The fat tone is about trying to achieve an even more open tone than 2.3 triple flanged, by usiing 1.6 instead of 2.3 thick steel, but folding over so that it is more stiff than those old cheap 1.6 triple flanged hoops.

So really, a good comparison would be fat tones vs 2.3 triple flanged; fat tones vs Die Cast would be apples vs oranges.

Rhythm Devil
03-24-2012, 03:53 PM
I never experienced this dead or choked sound everyone talks about with diecast hoops. I actually think my drums sustain plenty with them. The major bonus I have found with diecast is how well the drums hold their tuning. I don't have fine tune nearly as much with them. On the contrary I'm always fine tuning my kit with flanged every other show we play. Maybe the thicker shell likes the cast better. I'll have try them on my thinner shelled kit and see what happens to those.

I've been thinking it's more about a lack of tone being contributed with the die cast vs their weight etc causing the drum to actually choke. Though their weight adds other factors imo. I think it's the sound of a flange hoop (regular steel hoop) that is missing with the die casts, causing people to 'think' the drum is choked, when really it's just a more 'pure' drum sound (woody). I don't know....that's my latest thinking. :) I also don't think all zinc die cast have the same dead-ness. I have an old rusted one a friend gave me and it rings clean, clear and long when struck alone, where as my Mastercast went "clunk".

zildjian2003
03-26-2012, 12:00 PM
I was wondering if the fat tone hoops hold their tuning like the die cast hoops do. I agree with jutt8 about how much better the die cast hoops hold tuning better than other hoops.

Thrush
03-26-2012, 12:13 PM
^ That was what my understanding of them was; the hold tuning like DC, because of their increased strength (supposed to be similar to that of DC) but allow the heads, and drums, to resonate more freely because of their lighter weight, from the thinner steel.

I have four different types of hoops over my kits; the CZX wears 2.3mm SuperHoops, my Premiers have the old fashioned Premier cast hoops, my two rebuilt toms (on the Premier kit) and the Export floor tom, all have 1.6mm triple flange, and my snares range from 1.6mm TF, 2.3mm TF and Pearl's DC hoops.

The DC hoops on the CZX snare hold tuning much better than the 1.6mm hoops on my Pearl COB snare. The 2.3mm hoops on the CZX toms hold better than the 1.6mm on the hybrid kit's toms, and the PremCast hoops hold just as well as the 2.3's on the CZX. So there is little, if any, in it between the PremCast tom hoops and the Pearl Superhoops.

Point is, if I decided to go MasterWorks, would I choose DC or FatTone?

Thrush
03-26-2012, 12:15 PM
^ That was what my understanding of them was; the hold tuning like DC, because of their increased strength (supposed to be similar to that of DC) but allow the heads, and drums, to resonate more freely because of their lighter weight, from the thinner steel.

I have four different types of hoops over my kits; the CZX wears 2.3mm SuperHoops, my Premiers have the old fashioned Premier cast hoops, my two rebuilt toms (on the Premier kit) and the Export floor tom, all have 1.6mm triple flange, and my snares range from 1.6mm TF, 2.3mm TF and Pearl's DC hoops.

The DC hoops on the CZX snare hold tuning much better than the 1.6mm hoops on my Pearl COB snare. The 2.3mm hoops on the CZX toms hold better than the 1.6mm on the hybrid kit's toms, and the PremCast hoops hold just as well as the 2.3's on the CZX. So there is little, if any, in it between the PremCast tom hoops and the Pearl Superhoops.

Point is, if I decided to go MasterWorks, would I choose DC or FatTone, or stick with the reliable and trusty 2.3 SuperHoops (and to be honest, other than looksm the only real difference that might sway me, other than any sound difference, would be the fact that DC and FatTone hoops have a lower profile than the Superhoops, which stick up higher above the heads)

quicksticks
03-26-2012, 12:20 PM
I don't think it is about weight. Triple-flanged hoops result in a more open drum than Die Cast, whereas die cast are more focussed. But not because of being lighter; because triple-flanged have slightly more give, so the tension in the middle of 2 lugs is slightly lower than at the lugs. The fat tone is about trying to achieve an even more open tone than 2.3 triple flanged, by usiing 1.6 instead of 2.3 thick steel, but folding over so that it is more stiff than those old cheap 1.6 triple flanged hoops.

So really, a good comparison would be fat tones vs 2.3 triple flanged; fat tones vs Die Cast would be apples vs oranges.

I'd like to take it a step further and hear the same drum or drums with all four different
hoops so once and for all we can clearly hear what the differences are. My MCX is my first kit with die cast hoops. I also have a 2002 Masters limited edition snare with die cast hoops. I don't know what these drums would sound like with another hoop, but I do know that they sound great. Maybe I'm a product of the 60's and I'm used to using duct tape to remove the ring, but my drums have just enough ring and resonance for me. BTW, I haven't used duct tape in 17 years and there's no pillow in my kick.

MusicMan
03-26-2012, 01:07 PM
I was wondering if the fat tone hoops hold their tuning like the die cast hoops do. I agree with jutt8 about how much better the die cast hoops hold tuning better than other hoops.

Hi,

I haven't noticed any difference in how the die cast or Fat Tone hoops hold their tuning. However, I'm tuning my toms loose and to the lowest pitch of the shell so I'm not puttig a lot of stress on either kind of hoops.

MM :)

Drummer freak 16
04-15-2012, 12:56 PM
I've been thinking it's more about a lack of tone being contributed with the die cast vs their weight etc causing the drum to actually choke. Though their weight adds other factors imo. I think it's the sound of a flange hoop (regular steel hoop) that is missing with the die casts, causing people to 'think' the drum is choked, when really it's just a more 'pure' drum sound (woody). I don't know....that's my latest thinking. :) I also don't think all zinc die cast have the same dead-ness. I have an old rusted one a friend gave me and it rings clean, clear and long when struck alone, where as my Mastercast went "clunk".

Bingo. Die Casts tend to give the shell the spotlight whereas flanged tend to give the head preference. Simple physics. Lighter hoop = head less encumbered = more energy absorbed by head = more vibration from head. Heavier hoop = more encumbered head = less energy absorbed by head = more energy transferred into shell. Head choice is a biggie too. Coateds will respond differently with different hoops than clears. Personally I like coated resos and batters with die cast hoops on thin shelled drums (jazz drum style). However, that's for toms. When it comes to snares, die cast and (my all time favorite) maple hoops are my only choices. I hate a ringy, whiny snare, but I want one that has great tone. Maple is the perfect compromise. Provides more warmth to the sound while deadening an otherwise ringy head. ME GUSTA.

Thrush
04-15-2012, 01:13 PM
So, if looking for a big, fat, deep, focused sound, on a thin shell kit, such as a Master MHX (4 ply mahogany - known for it's rich low end), DC would be the preferred choice to really bring out the wood/shell tone?

Drummer freak 16
04-15-2012, 01:16 PM
And for what it's worth (nothing) maple hoops are the way to go on bass drums too!

Drummer freak 16
04-15-2012, 01:21 PM
So, if looking for a big, fat, deep, focused sound, on a thin shell kit, such as a Master MHX (4 ply mahogany - known for it's rich low end), DC would be the preferred choice to really bring out the wood/shell tone?

Yeah that just about sums it up. A lot of the old jazz greats (and a lot of current ones) preferred thin shells and die cast hoops for that reason. It had a much woodier sound, really brought out the woods characteristics. A good example of a modern kit that uses this concept is the DW jazz series. I personally prefer Pearl, but you will get the point when you hear this kit. Thin shells, very resonant and (drum roll please) die cast hoops.

Thrush
04-15-2012, 01:25 PM
It makes sense I guess - my Premiers, that are easily 70's if not older, have very thin shells (three ply birch I believe, with a mahogany/birch kick drum, all with re-rings) have the classic PremCast die-cast hoops on them

Thrush
04-15-2012, 01:27 PM
Looking at the other end of the scale, are thick shells, like my 8 and 10 ply CZX drums, better suited to triple flange or DC's? They still wear the 2.3mm superhoops they came with from day one

Drummer freak 16
04-15-2012, 01:36 PM
by my logic, I would go with flanged just to provide balance. On a thick shell, I would be finding ways to open up the sound more than anything. Original Reference floor toms are a good example. Thick as a brick and heavy shelled. I prefer a triple flanged there just because I want a balance of tone and focus. The shell provides the focus in that equation (because its so thick) so that means its the hoop's job to open it up.

Drummer freak 16
04-18-2012, 07:41 PM
http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_parts.html Here is an interesting article that should intrigue everyone. Not to mention give a little insight as to why they are called fat tone hoops. Just thought it was worth sharing here.

trickg
04-18-2012, 07:56 PM
I've never been one to believe that die cast hoops were in any way superior to flanged - maybe a bit easier to tune up, but otherwise I just regarded them as being more expensive and different as opposed to "better." It would seem that Pearl might be onto something here though because one thing that you definitely got out of die cast hoops over flanged were more solid rimshots and cross sticking. If these have the rigidity and cross-sticking advantage without the cost and weight of die cast, I'm interested.

Bradston
05-13-2012, 04:56 PM
Actually he recorded with the Master Series kit. Same configuration though. To hear RP's you have to go out to a show in which they sound KILLLERR! :D

Bradston
05-13-2012, 04:58 PM
After listening to Mike Mangini's Reference Pure drums on the latest Dream Theater album, I thought they sounded fine, but no better than other recorded drummers I've heard recently. On a side note, Mangini's drums are so far back in the mix, it's hard to tell he's even there at times... lol

Actually he recorded with the Master Series kit. Same configuration though. To hear his RP's you have to go out to a show in which they sound KILLLERR! :D