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radcaat
06-21-2010, 02:42 AM
hi there everyone at PDF!

so i'm relatively new to double kicking, despite my deep interest and extensive practice on them.

I have pearl powershifters (p122tw) pedals and have been playing with them for about 5 months or so now.
I've had a couple of problems with them, which have recently been fixed up (if u need more info on this i can link you to the thread) but i still feel that i'm not getting the potential from my pedals.

i play metal/hardcore with some pretty technical double kick work and can't afford to screw up when im gigging etc.

Basically i feel that i can't go as fast on these pedals as i can on other peoples pedals. I also can barely heel-toe at all on these pedals but can easily heel-toe on other peoples.
Is this simply down to the tweaking and settings of the pedals? such as the spring tension, footboard elevation, beater distance etc? or is it the pedals in general? i really dont know but i would like for someone to share their experience with these pedals and perhaps share with me how you have set up and tweaked your pedals.

If you like, provide some pictures showing me the spring tensions and so forth. I feel that my pedals have a low footboard with fairly loose spring which i thought would be beneficial for faster double kicking, perhaps i am wrong?

sorry about the long post, i hope you can help xD

GTHO_PhaseIII
06-21-2010, 03:08 AM
What sort of speeds are you able to reach now as it is? If you really feel you're being held back by the pedals, have a play around on other peoples stuff (as you say you've done), pick the one you like, buy it - and leave it at that. Spend an hour or so messing about with different settings to find what you like, then just play. There is no magic setting or ultimate pedal, just let your feet get used to what's under them and go from there. Your feet will never be faster than the pedal.

radcaat
06-21-2010, 03:26 AM
What sort of speeds are you able to reach now as it is? If you really feel you're being held back by the pedals, have a play around on other peoples stuff (as you say you've done), pick the one you like, buy it - and leave it at that. Spend an hour or so messing about with different settings to find what you like, then just play. There is no magic setting or ultimate pedal, just let your feet get used to what's under them and go from there. Your feet will never be faster than the pedal.

i'm not sure how i can gauge what speed i pick up atm cuz i've never played to a click track at a set bpm.

the thing is, the pedals i have played on that appeared to be better than mine were cheap ****ty pedals.

GTHO_PhaseIII
06-21-2010, 03:36 AM
i'm not sure how i can gauge what speed i pick up atm cuz i've never played to a click track at a set bpm.

the thing is, the pedals i have played on that appeared to be better than mine were cheap ****ty pedals.

In that case you should definitely pick up a metronome and start practising to that.

As for their pedals being worse than yours, it could be that certain settings are making it easier for you to play specific techniques (you mentioned heel-toe), but you shouldn't be banking on one particular way of playing to pick up the speeds you want to achieve. Basically what I'm saying by this, is don't fall into the trap of thinking that you won't be able to play the way you'd like to if you don't learn some fancy technique. Get a metronome and plenty of practice and see where that takes you. Gear always helps, but don't rely solely on your equipment.

mattsimonton
06-21-2010, 03:46 AM
If your pedals are adjusted to your liking and working smoothly then its all down to practice.

Heel toe has quite a bit to do with pedal set up. I found it easiest to pull off with medium tension, beaters at 45 degrees and foot boards as low as they could go. With a stuffed bass drum. But I couldnt single stroke with that set up.

I dont play Heel toe any more, but I do quite a bit of foot work. Singles, doubles, dynamic patterns, rudiments, etc...
The only way your going to get faster is to play patterns over and over again.
you can download click tracks and they even have apps for iphones or ipods with them for cheap. I would suggest playing patterns for a few bars at half speed and then a few bars at full. It takes time... a lot of it

I was pretty darn fast with my dw 4002s which were 150 dollar pedals, I picked up some Iron Cobras and it took time to adjust to them. Best pedals I have played, but speed and control have more to do with my ability than the pedals. I would go look at the pedals that feel more comfortable and set yours up as close as you could get

radcaat
06-21-2010, 05:17 AM
If your pedals are adjusted to your liking and working smoothly then its all down to practice.

Heel toe has quite a bit to do with pedal set up. I found it easiest to pull off with medium tension, beaters at 45 degrees and foot boards as low as they could go. With a stuffed bass drum. But I couldnt single stroke with that set up.

I dont play Heel toe any more, but I do quite a bit of foot work. Singles, doubles, dynamic patterns, rudiments, etc...
The only way your going to get faster is to play patterns over and over again.
you can download click tracks and they even have apps for iphones or ipods with them for cheap. I would suggest playing patterns for a few bars at half speed and then a few bars at full. It takes time... a lot of it

I was pretty darn fast with my dw 4002s which were 150 dollar pedals, I picked up some Iron Cobras and it took time to adjust to them. Best pedals I have played, but speed and control have more to do with my ability than the pedals. I would go look at the pedals that feel more comfortable and set yours up as close as you could get

i understand what you're saying here.

the thing that i'm trying to facilitate is that sure i can play at some speed, but if i adjust the spring tension to a tighter setting, for example, will i be able to play the extra bpm?

also i do have a metronome on my iphone which i will start playing along to, i have yet to do the daily exercises which i learned off some metal drummer dude on youtube.
hopefully if i play around with the settings on my pedals and start doing some exercises i can improve :)

Drobac
06-21-2010, 05:22 AM
I feel that my pedals have a low footboard with fairly loose spring which i thought would be beneficial for faster double kicking, perhaps i am wrong?


Majority of fast double bass players use high spring tension with the beaters not closer to the head than 45 degrees. It helps a lot with the balance and the beater is quicker that way, but if your feet are not strong enough it will get pretty hard to move them if the tension is too high. Also play a little with the beater height.

radcaat
06-21-2010, 05:48 AM
Majority of fast double bass players use high spring tension with the beaters not closer to the head than 45 degrees. It helps a lot with the balance and the beater is quicker that way, but if your feet are not strong enough it will get pretty hard to move them if the tension is too high. Also play a little with the beater height.

Grof Drobikus to the rescue again!

yes i have definitely considered what you suggest.

what effect does the beater height have?

Drobac
06-21-2010, 06:44 AM
Well, it affects the swing of the pedal and the feel. More height will give you heavier feel, lower height will give you lighter feel and the pedal is quicker, but I would say you will loose some control over it if you lower it too much. You need to play with the settings to make the pedal feel comfortable to your feet. I can go pretty fast with my pedal, but I doubt you will like mine settings, so this is something you need to find yourself.

radcaat
06-21-2010, 09:14 AM
Well, it affects the swing of the pedal and the feel. More height will give you heavier feel, lower height will give you lighter feel and the pedal is quicker, but I would say you will loose some control over it if you lower it too much. You need to play with the settings to make the pedal feel comfortable to your feet. I can go pretty fast with my pedal, but I doubt you will like mine settings, so this is something you need to find yourself.

ah understood.

theres also an adjustment at the base of the footplate where your heel sits (if you play heel down).
I have no idea what it does and i haven't touched it since i got the pedals cuz it had a sticker over them. Is it worth playin around with these?

Drobac
06-21-2010, 10:03 AM
It affects the feel of the pedal. I believe closer to you is a light feeling, closer to the drum is a heavier feeling and midle is somewhere in between.

ADrummersdad
06-21-2010, 06:05 PM
Majority of fast double bass players use high spring tension with the beaters not closer to the head than 45 degrees. It helps a lot with the balance and the beater is quicker that way, but if your feet are not strong enough it will get pretty hard to move them if the tension is too high. Also play a little with the beater height.

See this is where these threads can confuse the hell out of you. Now Grof says heavier spring tension and beaters back. Probably works great for many but will it work for you? I was gonna say medium to just less than medium spring tension with beaters at less than 45 degrees "closer to head". I can rip heal toe with my pedals set like this but when you crank up the tension I can't keep it clean. Also as far as pedals go, I cannot be convinced that you can't make a cheap pedal fly. Will it feel as good or help you play faster longer than a top of the line pedal - no. I have an elliminator and actually stopped using the Red cam "can you belive it". The most prized and cherished of all Elliminator cams. I found for me while the Red gives you a stronger thump, the rounder cams give back the speed. I still have an old Tama single, pre-Iron cobra or Jr or any of that. It's not offset chain or anything radical like that. I played with it the other night and after re-adjusting it several times I was ripping heal toe with it. I think this pedal cost about $32 bucks.

RYAN LOWE
06-21-2010, 07:41 PM
Well, IMO, I say toss the pedals, and get long boards. However, if money is an issue, keep messing with your pedals best you can, and work on it. I had elims and could not for the life of me get heel toe working very well at all. Few weeks ago, I snatched up some PDP B.O.A pedals, and man, been cooking ever since. I had tried axis long boards in the past, but could not get an adjustment to work for me. Anyway, I played with my pearl pedals for years, and within 2 days of switching to the B.O.A, my speed went faster, and much easier (less work). I didnt even really mess with the settings much at all. IMO, after all that, I found you do need the pedals that are just right for you. Some people play better on single chain cheap pedals, some play better with direct drive, etc... Good luck, and I guess to sum it up, if after a few months you find it's still hard, I would suggest trying a different pedal.

radcaat
06-22-2010, 01:05 AM
Well, IMO, I say toss the pedals, and get long boards. However, if money is an issue, keep messing with your pedals best you can, and work on it. I had elims and could not for the life of me get heel toe working very well at all. Few weeks ago, I snatched up some PDP B.O.A pedals, and man, been cooking ever since. I had tried axis long boards in the past, but could not get an adjustment to work for me. Anyway, I played with my pearl pedals for years, and within 2 days of switching to the B.O.A, my speed went faster, and much easier (less work). I didnt even really mess with the settings much at all. IMO, after all that, I found you do need the pedals that are just right for you. Some people play better on single chain cheap pedals, some play better with direct drive, etc... Good luck, and I guess to sum it up, if after a few months you find it's still hard, I would suggest trying a different pedal.

thanks, this post was very beneficial.

anyway, i played around with my pedals today, i tightened the springs a fair bit, lowered the beaters a bit, raised the footboard and also moved the footboard right to the back.

it feels a bit easier to play and i believe i can get a faster double kick in but it still doesn't feel as sleek as i believe it can.

also i ran into an issue - the pedals are now very squeaky :mad:
can someone perhaps run me through lubricating the chains? i have some sewing machine oil which i have been assured is the lubricant to use on pedals.

any more advice is of course welcomed <3

Drobac
06-22-2010, 02:45 AM
See this is where these threads can confuse the hell out of you. Now Grof says heavier spring tension and beaters back. Probably works great for many but will it work for you?
That's the reason I said MAJORITY of fast drummers use these settings, I never said it will work for everyone. ;)
And when I say fast drummers, I mean drummers that can pull off 250+ bpms in 16th notes. There are still some guys that can do these speeds with lower spring tension, but majority of them has theirs springs cranked all the way (George Kollias and Derek Roddy comes to my mind).




also i ran into an issue - the pedals are now very squeaky :mad:
can someone perhaps run me through lubricating the chains?
Those are springs that make squeak. Lubricate their ends where they connect to other metal parts.

radcaat
06-22-2010, 04:23 AM
Those are springs that make squeak. Lubricate their ends where they connect to other metal parts.

incorrect, good sir.

these squeaks appear to be coming from the areas as labelled in the comical picture below :)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/705/sqeuakness.jpg

Drobac
06-22-2010, 04:37 AM
Lubricate it then. ;)

radcaat
06-22-2010, 04:39 AM
Lubricate it then. ;)

haha what just pour a little bit of oil around it?

the oil doesn't have a spray nozzle like WD-40 for example, so i'm out of ideas to accurately apply the oil xD

Drobac
06-22-2010, 04:48 AM
Put a drop of oil on U joint of the drive shaft and wipe off any excess. I seriously doubt that bearings squeak, if they do, they probably need replacement. After lubricating U joints, tell us does it squeaks again, but I still advice you to check the springs. ;)

radcaat
06-22-2010, 05:03 AM
Put a drop of oil on U joint of the drive shaft and wipe off any excess. I seriously doubt that bearings squeak, if they do, they probably need replacement. After lubricating U joints, tell us does it squeaks again, but I still advice you to check the springs. ;)

ok, i have no idea what the U joints are :D

also is the lubrication the same for the springs?

finally, do i need to lubricate the chains at all?

Drobac
06-22-2010, 06:59 AM
Yes, chains do need lubrication, and the ends of the springs where they are in contact with other metal parts. U joints are moving parts of the drive shaft, which are on each end of the shaft. Drive shaft is the bar that connects slave and master pedal. ;)

ADrummersdad
06-22-2010, 04:25 PM
That's the reason I said MAJORITY of fast drummers use these settings, I never said it will work for everyone.

Chill out Grof! I didn't say you were wrong or that you said this is the only way to do it. I was saying that when you ask a question on here a lot of times you get answers from two different perspectives and it can get confusing.

Drobac
06-23-2010, 02:56 AM
I was chill man, I understand your point. We are only discussing. ;)

That's the reason settings are a personal thing. You can get diametrically different answers for the same thing. ;)

radcaat
06-24-2010, 09:49 AM
I was chill man, I understand your point. We are only discussing. ;)

That's the reason settings are a personal thing. You can get diametrically different answers for the same thing. ;)

alright grof CALM DOWN!



nah im joking.

i presume lubricating the chain is similar in that i just add a drop or two of the oil to the chain and process it for a bit, whilst wiping any potential excess..?

Drobac
06-24-2010, 03:42 PM
Yep. ;)

radcaat
06-25-2010, 01:34 AM
just lubed up everything i could on the pedals and they feel wayy smoother. tomorrow ill crank up the spring tension and try out some new settings during band practice.

<3 grof

DarkEdgeX5
06-25-2010, 01:39 AM
Just a quick question,
what would lowering the beaters do in terms of the feel of the pedal?

radcaat
06-25-2010, 01:44 AM
Just a quick question,
what would lowering the beaters do in terms of the feel of the pedal?

it makes it feel easier to kick, when its much higher you can feel the weight leverage. it's just another personal preference thing.

The iron cobras have a counterweight which you can slide up and down the beater to find the perfect weight, for example.