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  1. Registered User

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    To clear matters up for anyone else that wants to jump into this discussion.
    I am not interested in Dunnetts secrets. I don't need for him to tell me how to work on Titanium or any other metal as i have more than enough experiance in that field. Just wanted to see if he knew what he was talkin about in the simplest manner possible without disclosing his "SECRETS".


    I just find too many irregularities in Dunnetts statements for me to lie down and accept.
    He claims to this special Cryogenic treatment that renders a welded shell seamless, then he posts that it dosen't matter to him if a shell is seamless or not. Which one is it then.


    he posts a picture of someone welding Ti and claims that he does the best he can to create as good a shell as he can but, if you weld Titanium then you should know that you need to shield both sides of the weld if not you create a piece of junk. The picture dictates otherwise.

    To conclude , i have my reasons to question Dunnetts work and if anyone has a problem with that ,then i'm sorry but, i can't help you.

  2. Sooouuup....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    To clear matters up for anyone else that wants to jump into this discussion.
    I am not interested in Dunnetts secrets. I don't need for him to tell me how to work on Titanium or any other metal as i have more than enough experiance in that field. Just wanted to see if he knew what he was talkin about in the simplest manner possible without disclosing his "SECRETS".


    I just find too many irregularities in Dunnetts statements for me to lie down and accept.
    He claims to this special Cryogenic treatment that renders a welded shell seamless, then he posts that it dosen't matter to him if a shell is seamless or not. Which one is it then.


    he posts a picture of someone welding Ti and claims that he does the best he can to create as good a shell as he can but, if you weld Titanium then you should know that you need to shield both sides of the weld if not you create a piece of junk. The picture dictates otherwise.

    To conclude , i have my reasons to question Dunnetts work and if anyone has a problem with that ,then i'm sorry but, i can't help you.
    No one has a problem with you questioning his work, just try to not be such a **** about it. That's all that anyone has said.
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  3. Mr Lux to you...!

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    Let it go tslsx74

    You've made it clear that you have reasons to question Ronn Dunnett's work, and that you think his prices are too high. That's fine. I don't think anyone has a problem with you having or expressing that view, so long as you put it out there respectfully.

    Your posts now are making you sound petulant, and your arguments don't stack up. You are reading things in to posts which are not there. You appear to be downright wrong in some of your assertions.

    Let's look at what you've said...

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    I'm sorry to bust your bubble my friend but, Dunnett uses the same shells as Drum Foundry and yes Dunnett shells are rolled and welded not one piece. Dunnett does not make his own titanium shells.
    It appears that you were simply wrong with this statement about Ronn not making his own titanium shells. Are you man enough to admit it yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    If as you claim that you make your own Titanium shells form magical mistical material that only you use it is strange that you cannot or will not explain in laymans terms as to how you go about rolling ,welding, grinding and finishing the shells nor do you have any conclusive pictures to prove your arguement.
    You admit below that no small businessman owes you proprietary information. Ronn has stated to you that he proposes to protect his methods, processes and materials. On a high profile pubic forum that's probably a sensible approach, don't you think?

    And let's be serious about your claim that Ronn Dunnett doesn't make his own titanium shells. Why would Ludwig contract Ronn to make the titanium shells for it's flagship snare drum, The Chief? This is Ludwig's specially released snare drum honouring Bill Ludwig II. If Ronn simply outsources his titanium shells, wouldn't Ludwig simply go to the same contractor and cut out the middle man? And you can be sure that Ludwig did not want shoddy workmanship on the shells for its flagship snare drum.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    You do make a decent drum but, definitely not worth the hefty price tag and i am yet to find a Dunnett drum that sounds any better than a drum made by any of the numerous drum companies that make quality drums.

    Is a Dunnet drum better than lets say a Craviotto or a Ocheltree or a Pearl or a Tama Titan (titanium) etc i don't think so.
    As Ronn stated, he never said he made better drums that the makers you named (although how do you compare a titanium Dunnett with, say, a cherry/maple Craviotto?). Ronn expressly recognised that his colleagues/competitors make some very special drums. I certainly agree with him on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    A problem arises when a welded shell is presented under the pretence of a seamless shell and sold at the higher associated price tag.
    This seems to be one of your sticking points but also one of the biggest problems with your arguments. The quote from which this point is taken unmistakably says "rendering the drum virtually seamless".

    There is absolutely no assertion here that the drum in seamless. In fact the use of the word "virtually" actually confirms for me that the drum has a seam (although as a result of the process it may seem like it doesn't, even though it does).

    I'm not sure how you could confuse "virtually seamless" with "seamless". Is what you see when you put on a virtual reality helmet "reality" or "virtual reality" (in other words, not reality but seems like reality).

    Or if you see a drum kit advertised as "virtually brand new". Doesn't that mean to you, not brand new, but just like brand new? It does to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    I just don't like people trying to brainwash others with devious marketting.
    How is Dunnett's marketing "devious"?

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    Your opinion that Ronn Dunnett is the best is just that AN OPINION, YOUR'S.
    Monday317 doesn't say anywhere that Ronn Dunnett is the best. He uses the analogy of the high priced Aston Martin super car to support his point that if you want the best things in life you have to pay for them. And like cars, with drums there is no single "best" anyway. It depends on what you are looking for in a drum or car.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    What someone is willing to pay for a product is up to them, not for anyone else to decide. A manufaturer sets a price and the consumer decides whether they want to pay that price or not.
    You've indicated quite clearly that you think Dunnett drums are over priced, and you accept that others can decide for themselves whether to pay the asking price or not. So what's to argue about in relation to the cost of Dunnett drums?

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    If dunnett was the ultimate in drums ,guess what everyone would be playing Dunnet drums but, that is not the case is it chief.
    This is just a stupid and condescending comment, to a respected forum member. You know yourself that your argument is totally untenable. If Aston Martin was the ultimate in cars, would everyone own one? I don't think so. If Rolex is the ultimate watch, would everyone wear one? Um, no!

    Something can be the "ultimate", but that doesn't mean everyone's going to have one. We all have different needs, different perceptions of value, and different capacities to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    Cryogenics
    In March 2000 I became the first and so far only company to offer cryogenic processing of drum shells. The cryogenic treatment used is a proprietary process that involves computer controlled temperature reduction via slow diffusion of liquid nitrogen into a vacuum sealed chamber over a period of several hours. Once at the desired temperature of -328 below zero, the bottom temperature is maintained for periods up to thirty six hours before a 12 hour reverse cycle begins. The entire cycle takes about three days. Deep cryogenic tempering can significantly extend the performance, integrity and productive life of metal drum shells, hoops and snare wires. Deep cryogenic temperatures are required to effect a complete molecular change in most alloy steels, converting retained austenite into martensite (a more refined grain structure, which is more uniform than austenite ). Cryogenic tempering transforms the micro structure into a more uniform structure that is more durable, stronger, longer lasting, and more dimensionally stable. The results of cryogenic treatment are not visually detectable without the aid of an electron microscope. Changes in material structure take place at the molecular level when subjected to long periods of deep cryogenic temperatures of -328 degrees below zero. Cryogenic tempering completely de-stresses the shell and the weld is essentially negated, rendering the drum virtually seamless. Applied to other drum components, cryogenic tempering substantially increases strength of standard triple flange hoops and the life of snare wires.

    IS THAT MISLEADING ENOUGH FOR YOU CHIEF.
    No. It's not misleading at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    What the hell is virtually seamless. Either you have a seam or you don't. There is no middle ground.
    Another ill considered post. Ronn's drums have a seam. There is nothing on the site which says they don't. Ronn explains that as a result of his cryogenic process his titanium drums are "virtually seamless". As indicated above, doesn't this indicate to you that they have a seam, but it doesn't seem like they do?

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    Dunnett snares aren't super cheap, but neither is an Aston-Martin DBX. There are cheaper alternatives, but if you want the very best, you have to pay for it, yes?

    So what exactly is Monday trying to say in his own words?
    I think he's trying to say that if you want the very best (of anything) you have to pay for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    I just find too many irregularities in Dunnetts statements for me to lie down and accept.
    He claims to this special Cryogenic treatment that renders a welded shell seamless, then he posts that it dosen't matter to him if a shell is seamless or not. Which one is it then.
    You are the one being less than forthright with the facts here. Ronn's explanation of his cryogenic process does not say that the process renders a welded shell seamless.

    It says, quite clearly and expressly, "renders the shell virtually seamless". How do you get "seamless" from that? Why would he include the word "virtually" if the intention was to mislead people?

    And why does rendering a shell virtually seamless mean that Ronn it should matter to Ronn whether or not a shell is seamless or not? No doubt the existence of a seam may affect the sound of a shell, so seamless may be desirable in some cases, but not in others.

    And Ronn stated his view quite clearly in an earlier post "I've played hundreds of metal snare drums, seamed and seamless, and I could never hear a difference nor understand why one was preferable over the other".

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    To conclude , i have my reasons to question Dunnetts work and if anyone has a problem with that ,then i'm sorry but, i can't help you.
    No one has a problem with you questioning Ronn Dunnett's work. I doubt even Ronn has a problem with that so long as you are not asserting beliefs as facts.

    Some of us have a problem with you acting in a petulant manner, or being condescending to other forum members and brothers in drumming, when you could easily have your say and make your point in a mature and respectful way. It would also help if you were man enough to accept when you were wrong.

    I'm sure you have a lot of experience and can bring a lot of value to this forum. I look forward to benefitting from it.

    cheers

  4. Drummist

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    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    To clear matters up for anyone else that wants to jump into this discussion.
    I am not interested in Dunnetts secrets. I don't need for him to tell me how to work on Titanium or any other metal as i have more than enough experiance in that field. Just wanted to see if he knew what he was talkin about in the simplest manner possible without disclosing his "SECRETS".


    I just find too many irregularities in Dunnetts statements for me to lie down and accept.
    He claims to this special Cryogenic treatment that renders a welded shell seamless, then he posts that it dosen't matter to him if a shell is seamless or not. Which one is it then.


    he posts a picture of someone welding Ti and claims that he does the best he can to create as good a shell as he can but, if you weld Titanium then you should know that you need to shield both sides of the weld if not you create a piece of junk. The picture dictates otherwise.

    To conclude , i have my reasons to question Dunnetts work and if anyone has a problem with that ,then i'm sorry but, i can't help you.
    Geez, you're a picky maternal coiteur... I suppose we didn't really land on the moon, either?
    cogito ergo Bebop a Lula

  5. Immortality has its Privelages

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    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    No small businessman OWES you proprietary info! Do you know what a patent attorney costs these days??

    So this comment from Monday along with negative rep is acceptable to you but, my questioning Dunnett is not.

    I would suggest that you or anyone else that wants to get in on the action check before you jump all over me.
    I never said that I expected Ronn Dunnett to share proprietary secrets, I just said we should take the opportunity to talk drums with the man. It was actuallly you, who in the beginning of this thread were asking for special details on the manufacturing and tell Ronn to essentially man-up and not just say "i won't share" that was you , not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgateDrummer View Post
    No one has a problem with you questioning his work, just try to not be such a **** about it. That's all that anyone has said.
    That was essentially all I was trying to say but I guess I'm a little wordier... believe me I've read every single post in this thread. I hardly ever judge, hardly ever give neg rep and hardly ever get on anyone's case... check my posts.... Question, Ronn and every other manufacuter of everything for all I care... but unless someone has done something to you personally I see no reason to act like a jerk.

  6. Registered User

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    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    No small businessman OWES you proprietary info!
    Couldn't agree more.

    Quote Originally Posted by tslsx74 View Post
    Do you know what a patent attorney costs these days??
    I'm not sure what the point of your question is, but I have more than just an idea of how much a patent attorney costs. I own several patents and have a few more patents pending. For some IP it is a necessity, particularly when your idea can easily be reverse engineered. The problem with this is that you are required to disclose your invention to the patent authority in the country in which you are applying - think about that.

    However in some cases where the IP cannot be reversed engineered and the "secret" remains with the inventor / author, a patent is redundant.

    As an example, consider the Colonel's KFC recipe. If he decided to get a patent he would have to disclose the ingredients of his secret formula of "11 different herbs and spices" to the patent authority. Only a matter of time before someone with no talent or imagination of their own reads the disclosure, drops and ingredient or changes a few of them to circumvent the patent and starts making AFC - ALMOST Fried Chicken. (Then someone comes along and says "Why would I buy food from KFC when I can buy chicken that tastes almost as good for a little less?".)

    Its not my favourite analogy, but it works.

    Fortunately for Harland Sanders, he, um...didn't "run his mouth," nor did he have to pay $$$ for a patent attorney. He was able to protect his work on his own.

    Unfortunately for me, I did not apply for a patent on my formula for my Titanium shell - I just didn't have the $$ to hire a patent attorney and I didn't have the experience that I do now to prepare and file on my own.

    If I had filed and if a patent had been granted I can think of at least one company that would be infringing on that patent. Its easy to make less expensive knock offs when the work has been done for you - Wal-Mart is full of examples of that.

    I am able to protect those elements of my product that cannot be reverse engineered and copied - things like the grade of titanium I use, the heat treatment and other parts of the manufacturing process that make the material I use and the finished product 100% unique.
    Last edited by Dunnett Classic D; 01-06-2010 at 10:04 PM.
    Dunnett Classic Drums - Since 1989
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  7. The Most Bitter Mink!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnett Classic D View Post
    Couldn't agree more.



    I'm not sure what the point of your question is, but I have more than just an idea of how much a patent attorney costs. I own several patents and have a few more patents pending. For some IP it is a necessity, particularly when your idea can easily be reverse engineered. The problem with this is that you are required to disclose you invention to the patent authority in the country in which you are applying - think about that.

    However in some cases where the IP cannot be reversed engineered and the "secret" remains with the inventor / author a patent is redundant.

    As an example, consider the Colonel's KFC recipe. If he decided to get a patent he would have to disclose the ingredients to the patent authority. Only a matter of time before someone reads the disclosure, makes sufficient modifications to the recipe to circumvent the patent and starts making AFC - ALMOST Fried Chicken. Then someone comes along and says "Why would I buy food from KFC when I can buy chicken that tastes almost as good for a little less?".

    Fortunately for Harland Sanders, he, um...didn't "run his mouth."

    Its not my favourite analogy, but it works.
    I do know what one costs, and mine is a ****ing AMAZING one (family law though, not a Patent attorney), and two-three hours could pay for some pretty good drum gear with close to the prices of a Dunnett snare. I get what I pay for. Just like a custom builder might do. My two cents.
    My Kit!

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  8. Registered User

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    The price of my drums has been mentioned here several times. I am posting the Suggested selling price and the average street price of Dunnett Classic Stainless Steel and Titanium models:

    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Titanium in Raw finish: 6514TI-R
    MSSP = $1195
    Street = $995 - $1050


    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Stainless in Mirror finish: 6514SS-8
    MSSP = $765
    Street = $650 - $695

    I invite price comparisons with some similar Tama, Craviotto, Ocheltree, Ayotte-Keplinger, Sonor, Joyful Noise and Ludwig models.


    What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little; it is dearness only that gives everything value.
    Thomas Paine
    Dunnett Classic Drums - Since 1989
    Geo. H Way Drum Co.

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  9. The Most Bitter Mink!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnett Classic D View Post
    The price of my drums has been mentioned here several times. I am posting the Suggested selling price and the average street price of Dunnett Classic Stainless Steel and Titanium models:

    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Titanium in Raw finish: 6514TI-R
    MSSP = $1195
    Street = $995 - $1050


    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Stainless in Mirror finish: 6514SS-8
    MSSP = $765
    Street = $650 - $695

    I invite price comparisons with some similar Tama, Craviotto, Ocheltree, Ayotte-Keplinger, Sonor, Joyful Noise and Ludwig models.


    What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little; it is dearness only that gives everything value.
    Thomas Paine
    I was never trying to say your drums were outlandishly overpriced, I just do not have the money for any more high-end gear at the moment.
    My Kit!

    http://pearldrummersforum.com/showth...post1853278835

    Selling a 4x14 Vintage Stave Tamburo Snare. More info upon request.

  10. Drummist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunnett Classic D View Post
    The price of my drums has been mentioned here several times. I am posting the Suggested selling price and the average street price of Dunnett Classic Stainless Steel and Titanium models:

    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Titanium in Raw finish: 6514TI-R
    MSSP = $1195
    Street = $995 - $1050


    Dunnett Classic 6.5 x 14 Stainless in Mirror finish: 6514SS-8
    MSSP = $765
    Street = $650 - $695

    I invite price comparisons with some similar Tama, Craviotto, Ocheltree, Ayotte-Keplinger, Sonor, Joyful Noise and Ludwig models.


    What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little; it is dearness only that gives everything value.
    Thomas Paine
    I for one do NOT think your drums are too expensive. I've seen them and see the quality you build into them. It's neither inexpensive or easy to be an innovator and you do an amazing job.

    Some of the other brands are less expensive, but are produced with questionable results. I'm amazed Pearl does such a good job with their mass-market products, but their manufacturing costs are far lower. The other Pacific rim folks don't do badly either, but few of their products are sonically impressive. Still love the Ludwigs, though.

    I've auditioned some of the smaller makers at the Chicago Vintage Drum Show and came away unimpressed for the price. Joyful Noise makes beautiful drums, but many of them were nothing more than boutiquey Black Beauty knocks-off. Can we again use the word "Innovation"? How many companies are going to continue to make and sell black nickel drums before the whole thing becomes a cliche?

    Oh well, rant over. Keep plugging away Mr. Dunnett!
    cogito ergo Bebop a Lula

  11. Immortality has its Privelages

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    Yeah although I think at one point I mentioned the afforability of Dunnetts, much the same I never meant to insinuate that they are overpriced as compared. I mean the TAMA Titanium warlord is about the same or a little more to buy.

    Oh and Monday317 you're killin me with that dark blue typing man!

  12. Registered User

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    Thanks everyone - I really just wanted to underline the difference between affordability and value. It is a tough economy and I understand and share those concerns. I too buy drums - some more expensive than mine. I own 2 Joyful Noise snare drums. I saved up for those. I guess I could have bought a cheap brass shell from World Max and put tube lugs on it and "had virtually the same thing"...right?

    It has always been my mission statement to make the best drum I could make and keep it affordable - not exactly cheap, but not out of reach. This year I am not raising prices on Dunnett Classic snare drums or on George Way snare drums (except for the Advance One piece Maple model).
    Dunnett Classic Drums - Since 1989
    Geo. H Way Drum Co.

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