Why did they choose thick shells?

[Mark_Hazeldine]

I wonder why in all their sound testing, Pearl decide to go the reference series only one option for shell thickness, and why they decided on 6 and 8 ply shells. These are a good deal thicker than MMX and DW shells and as such will offer less resonance, but more projection. Have they decided in their wisdom that most people like loud kits? I would have thought there was a big market for a thin shelled version of the ref series.

Mark

P.S. can anybody tell me what advantage it is to have shells getting thicker as the drum size increases? Don't thicker shells raise the fundamental pitch of the shell and thus make the intervals closer together (not very desirable in my opinion)? I guess it could be to increase projection, but are they then suggesting that floor toms don't project well compared to rack toms? I'm not sure if that's true really.

[Custom Z]

I think it's like this:
Within the Masterworks line you can order this Reference shell config. I guess it's what they sold the most last years beside the 4 and 6 ply kits. They allready exist in a bulk production line (Masterseries), so what they did is create a new bulk production line for the other best selling Masterworks shell config.
Just check out what's in the stores last years concerning Masterworks: Always: 4 ply kits, 6 ply kits, or thick shelled mixed kits like the new Reference.

I agree with you, they should also launch thinner shells, 2 ply maple + 2 ply Mahogany on the large drums, 2 ply maple + 2 ply birch on the smaller, and a 4 ply maple 12"

BTW, the shellthickness is not the main factor in pitch, the diameter is. The thickness (and the depth and material) effect the timbre, that's the harmonic's, not the root note

[Mark_Hazeldine]

BTW, the shellthickness is not the main factor in pitch, the diameter is. The thickness (and the depth and material) effect the timbre, that's the harmonic's, not the root note

yep fair enough. but thick sheels also have less resonance, and the more plys you have, the less of the wood sound you actually hear (and more of the head sound), so this kind of defeats the object of gettting the shells "right".

It woud make sense if they offered 2 lines like an MMX and MRX.

[StarsandStraps]

P.S. can anybody tell me what advantage it is to have shells getting thicker as the drum size increases? Don't thicker shells raise the fundamental pitch of the shell and thus make the intervals closer together (not very desirable in my opinion)? I guess it could be to increase projection, but are they then suggesting that floor toms don't project well compared to rack toms? I'm not sure if that's true really.

Even though the thicker shells raise the pitch, the pitch intervals between toms with evenly spaced diameters is not equal if the heads are under the same tension as the heads surface area is proportional to the square. Thus increased shell thickness will reduce this gap and actually make the pitch intervals closer to being even.

Kinda hard to explain over the net.

[Mark_Hazeldine]

huh? say that again in a different way please!

[jpcdrummer]

The area of a circle is proportional to the radius squared. pi r squared dude, pi r squared. Do the math. A 14" tom has an area of 49pi square inches versus a 12" tom with 36pi square inches versus a 10" tom with 25pi square inches versus an 8" tom with 16pi square inches. It is not linear especially in terms of percentage area increase with the increase of the diameter by 2".

That is what he is saying. The non-linearity of the increase is compensated for by shell thickness. This is a good theory and may very well be correct. I certainly would not dismiss it out of hand.

[Musician]

All good points here but lets face it, Pearl will only create shells in their 2-ply 2.5mm intervals, so that doesnt leave us with a whole lot of room for wood experimentation in thinner shells. Pearl would have to thin out its individual plies altogether.

To get a 4-ply 5mm shell you can only have a choice of two woods in an even ratio. But it would be cool if pearl could use thinner plies and have lets say a 75% mahogany/25% maple shell at 5mm.

[Mark_Hazeldine]

Gareth Heeley of Highwood drums in the UK is about to start selling his own ply shell drums made of any wood you choose. He said he normally uses 0.6mm veneer which means theoretically you could have a 5-ply shell that is 3mm thick and make each ply of a different wood if you wished! He gave me a ROUGH quote of £2200 (about $4000) for a 10, 12, 14, 16, 24 kit. Which is only £50 more than the MHX i just bought! D'oh! oh well, i know what my next upgrade will be (no, not the reference series)!
I'm going to visit him tomorrow to see these shells for myself. [:D]

[Xplora]

MHX is Pearl quality and Pearl support... some bloke in rainy old England isn't the same thing; I could start making plies of any wood you wanted as well, except I can't make drums to save myself.

Its not a fair comparison. I'm not much into the whole elitist small builder boutique thing myself.

[jpcdrummer]

Me thinks me might have to agree with you. I have seen some criticism of Pearl on these boards and maybe it is from people that can't afford Reference series and feel the need to make themselves feel better by disparaging Pearl.

I love drums from all manufacturers but have chosen Pearl shells because I like them the best. I never put down anybody elses choice.

Just my $.02.

[vanillaCOKE2k2]

well, pearl has a name in drums above repute so even with those who oppose the reference idea, they still will sell.

[Mark_Hazeldine]

i'm not saying they won't sell, and i'm not saying i don't like Pearl. Far from it! look left my friends. What kit do i have? yes, an MHX.

All i'm saying, is i don't understand their logic on this one issue.

[gheeley]

MHX is Pearl quality and Pearl support... some bloke in rainy old England isn't the same thing; I could start making plies of any wood you wanted as well, except I can't make drums to save myself.

Its not a fair comparison. I'm not much into the whole elitist small builder boutique thing myself.

:) :) :)

hahha Hi guys, i think your said it yourself "I can't make drums to save myself", well i might be "Some Guy" but i can make drums, and do, its my fulltime job and my life, i have spent as much time playing as i have looking into construction & methods of building drums.

Highwood drums, is Highwood hand crafted quality & Highwood support, the guy you speak to on the phone is the same guy who selects the woods, builds shells & applys the finishes, he also the guy who you meet if you visit us, talks you through the process, is willing to experiment & will hold your hand throuh every stage of having ahand made kit, as mark knows there is only two of us at highwood drums, i handle everything from product design, customer corespondance & manufacturing, the other half focuses on the manufacturing shells 100% of his working time. we do this 6-7 days week non stop, we are experimenting & researching all the time & as we are a small busines we are more eccesible & flexible to clients & their ideas, unlike abig company such as the mighty PEARL.

i therefore fail to see how its not a fair comparison??? you abviously know your pearl but know nothing about us for you to draw your conclusion. you also not into the "elitist small builder boutique thing" so have already made it clear your biased, i think it ia a fair comparison.

DW, Brady started as small Elitist companys, infact i still class brady as such a company, i do this becaues they Don't mass manufacture shells, i have also put some thought into why the REF series is limited as to construction, the only conclusion is that its because they offered through a company that mass manufactures, the REF range is a way for pearl to add yet more layers of individualism to the offerings, Bespoke Drums have been big for many years now, this is a way for a huge multinational to offer someting difernent & more bespoke, whilst still being able to use its existing manufacturing proceses.
also it leaves them open to further expand their offerings if the REF products do very well (which they will & should) that is when they might offer shell thickness varyations etc...

offering diferent ply thickneses is a difficult job to handle, and on the scale pearl work i imagine it being beyond realistic scales, i use .5, .6mm, .7mm and 1.5mm veneers in my shells & the reason for that is based on location, wood type & Cut of veneer, i would imagine pearl buy by the LOG and cut their own veneers or pay for it to be proceses, where as i pay veneer merchants to get me bundles of a specific wood veneer, .5 & .6mm is european processed woods, the .7 and similar is stuff i locate from a merchant who operates in the US, the 1.5 is from a UK merchant that gets me crown cut (so wide widths are unavailable) veneers that i can use to make snare shells that have few plys, 2, 3, 4 layers of wood etc made from various exotic & hardwoods or varyations of. we buy materials in per job, that alows us to be flexible and although this is more expensive, our overheads are much lower than Pearl.

its a case of what can be done within realistic boundries. as mark now knows we try to offer in our shells what is not being done by other makers, in doing this we have to have flexible system for making shells, this is why our method of how we form our exotic & other ply shells is unique.

[Mark_Hazeldine]

good answer! :D

[GroverDrummer]

gheeley,
In your opinion, what is the sonic difference between two shells of the same thickness in which one uses fewer, thicker plies, and one uses more, thinner plies?

Do you offer different grain directions in your shell plies? Or is there some standard you always use?

How do you compress the plies as the glue is hardening?

[Mark_Hazeldine]

Gareth offers plies in any direction. Well i saw shells with completely vertical grain and some with both. didn't see any completely horizontal, but should be fairly easy for him to do i imagine.

[gheeley]

Hi Guys
sorry been out at a meeting, im normaly around on an evening.

GroverDrummer, its avery difficult question to answer when put under what may seem to you to be quite specific but in the grand scale of things to be very vage.
many peaople, including solid/single ply & stave shell fans and manufacturers put glue content down as a factor that deteriates against shell resonance.
I have never & will never agree with this arguement, if we are talking of Crossing grains (horezontal/virticle etc or the reverse) the more plys the more stable and ridgid the shell, it there for transfers vibration better, the glues will only dampen the sonic capabilities of the shell if using a adhesive that is not suitable, there are many products available that will not "dampen" the sound. fewer plys "Can" result nin a less rigind shell that may need re reings, or may be quite thick, the latter is where it becomes hard to predict the result.

my rule is, ply configuration does not matter, overal all wallthickness is the first factor to consider when looking at end result, once you have this then you can look at why or what would be the best configuration.

i have & do make shells with many thicknes and ply configuratiuons, my standard birch range is made from .5mm finish birch veneer, these feature 1/3 virticle grain (including faces), but i alos work with european standard .6mm veneers, i often import .7mm US cut veneers as there is wider choice of woods like maple (this is not available in rortary cut in the UK) i am close to releasing shells made out of 100% mahogany, bubinga, birch, maple (birds eye outer and inner faces). i am alos working on arange of shells using very thick plys, snare shells with 2, 3, 4 plys of various exotic or hard woods of choice, thes will feature 100% horezontal grain.

grain directions, are whatever i can accomodate, some woods i cant get in big enough cuts to offer any direction, all my shells come as standard with cross grained plys, the birch is virticle grained on the faces, inner & out, this is becaues i can get the material easily.....however i can work with and make shells with any ply configuration, crossgrained, all virticle or all horzontal etc, the labour & cost of materila changes the price, in my experiance virticle grains tend to cary the sound from head to head faster, horezontal grain slows the decay.

as mark knows im always willing to experiment with construction & i dont buy into the sales piches of less glue is better etc.. a well made shell is a well made shell, it will sound good and unless you are comparing various shells made by the same company its hard to evaluate an exact result, diferent methods result in diferent sounds, even if you are making shells that match in material configuration.

reagrding my constructon, we hand make ourshells and i cant tell you exactly how we do it as we have a diferent approach to how others do it, the latter stage is commonly used but 50% ply construction/configuration is done before we start forming the shell in the mold, our adhesive starts to set within 10 minutes, we dont microwace or heat cure our shells as we prefer to use as little machinery as posible, out shells stay in molds for around 12hrs before extraction and being left to fully cure.

pictures of one of the prototype "AnyWood Shells" not generaly availble yet as we cant make these easily in our current little workshop, thes will be on offer in many sizes around june. the thick ply shells available very soon:
http://forum.ghostnote.net/showthread.php?t=9029

[Snoogans]

hahha Hi guys, i think your said it yourself "I can't make drums to save myself", well i might be "Some Guy" but i can make drums, and do, its my fulltime job and my life, i have spent as much time playing as i have looking into construction & methods of building drums.



I think the point was that while you may be very good at building drums, however we don't really know that. Pearl on the other hand has a reputation of exceptional quality and are endorsed by the best drummers in the world. And this forum is testament to their customer support. It's this guaranteed quality and service why some people choose Pearl (Or other major manufacturer) over the boutique drum manufacturers.

[HardHitter]

All i'm saying, is i don't understand their logic on this one issue.
The logic was to NOT do what they had already achieved i.e. MMX, MRX etc...
Reference is a new idea, a new sound, a new kind of kit. Straight comparison doesn't work. There's a new phrase going around, maybe you've heard it: "Apples to Oranges." It's all the rage this year! What I am saying (as is Pearl) is that they already made the progress they set out for with the masters series, now it's time to make more progress. You won't get anything new making the same thing over and over.

[Mark_Hazeldine]

but a thin shelled reference kit wouldn't be the same as a Masters because no masters kit contains 3 different woods. Pearl said that their research was aimed at making the best sound possible, yes? Well, most people seem to prefer a very resonant kit over one that projects a lot but lacks resonance, so in my eyes that means the "best" shells would be thin ones.

[carl62]

I agree about the whole thin shell sound. I love it! I've played Pearl drums for over 14 years and all I heard was the sound of 6 ply 7.5mm shells. I didn't know any different. Then I got a set made about two years ago by a company called Precision out of New York and I decided to go with the 6 ply 4.2mm shell and the difference about made my head explode. It was as if I was hearing notes coming out of my drums for the first time! Gary at Precision told me that the thinner shell was the 'DW sound' (now I know why I like DW's :D ). Now, I'm in the process of getting another set and I will NEVER again go back to the sound of those high overtoned thick shells like Pearl has. It's a shame they don't have a thin shelled option. If they did, I would possibly reconsider Pearl again, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Sonorlite]

but a thin shelled reference kit wouldn't be the same as a Masters because no masters kit contains 3 different woods. Pearl said that their research was aimed at making the best sound possible, yes? Well, most people seem to prefer a very resonant kit over one that projects a lot but lacks resonance, so in my eyes that means the "best" shells would be thin ones.

How can you make a statement like this: Most people seem to prefer a very resonant kit. You only have too look at the Major drum manufacturers to see that Gretsch/Yamaha/Mapex/Sonor/Ludwig (and pearls non ringed shells) produce Non DW 'resonant' type shells. Even DW offer Non re-ringed shells and Premier will make either. Tama will add rings to their thicker shell -though its unneccesary. Spaun.....Noble & Cooley, ect.

I 'd have too say that the Majority -from my view, are of a Less 'resonant' Shell Construction, than a 'resonant' one -as you have mentioned.



And, How do you define.... 'Best'? and whats it best at? Is a 1mm sheet made metal snare better than a 1.5mm or 2mm one....or a cast one at 3mm?

Bottomline is: Its a drum. You either like the sound, or you dont.

I'm more interested in what Resonates with me, SOUND WISE. Than whether the drum resonates due to a 'suspected better' Shell thickness.... or some Hocus Pocus ply lay-up.

If One ply -solid, shells are supposedly 'better' than your average ply shell. How can the reference series be, 'the best' sounding? And who defines ....'Best?'

Pearl have done some research, and some people have reached an Opinion/conclusion. Now, at some point there will be a New kit launched too superseed..... The Reference series. Its the nature of, Sales.

Try the kit, if you like it Buy it...if you see no difference then dont.

[gheeley]

And who defines ....'Best?'


Mad, I Do :p :p :o ;)

[Sonorlite]

Mad, I Do :p :p :o ;)

What, George Best? We live r learn... :)


I think Marks been at the Crack pipe -lately...

[gheeley]

What, George Best? We live r learn... :)


I think Marks been at the Crack pipe -lately...

nahh i think hes on a Quest to find the Grail, people get obsessed people get when they go down that road.

[Sonorlite]

nahh i think hes on a Quest to find the Grail, people get obsessed people get when they go down that road.

In the words of talking heads - i think(?) "We're on the road to No-where..."


Obsessed. ...Well said.

[gheeley]

In the words of talking heads - i think(?) "We're on the road to No-where..."


Obsessed. ...Well said.

yup talking heads alright!

[Mark_Hazeldine]

so maybe i am obsessed, well, it gives me something to do, and i get a degree, and maybe a job, out of it.

[Sonorlite]

so maybe i am obsessed, well, it gives me something to do, and i get a degree, and maybe a job, out of it.

Ah, now see, he's not after the 'Holy Grail' G-man. -he's after a, Job! :D :)

It Could be worse, he could be Stalking....

[gheeley]

Ah, now see, he's not after the 'Holy Grail' G-man. -he's after a, Job! :D :)

It Could be worse, he could be Stalking....


money talks!!!

i have to say, i seen some of marks scetches and designs, very good stuff, he's certanly dedicated.

[valtemand]

If One ply -solid, shells are supposedly 'better' than your average ply shell. How can the reference series be, 'the best' sounding ?


it will only be a matter of time untill someone at pearl reads this thread and decide to crossbreed the different woods so that all the drums are solid shells :D :p

[Sonorlite]

it will only be a matter of time untill someone at pearl reads this thread and decide to crossbreed the different woods so that all the drums are solid shells :D :p

LOL! yeah....although, I think its already called: Remo acousticon. :D

[BCC]

I personally dig nice, thick drums. I have been a Sonor player for forever. I love the depth and dynamic sensativity a thick shell gives. Ultra thin shells sound bad *** from behind the kit but they quickly turn into mid range mush in a band setting. That is why I ordered my Matserworks with the thickest shells I could get.