I am totally frustrated...

[S86KMJ]

Hello guys,
I am from Germany, and perhaps my english suffered a bit from 2 years of serving in the army, so sorry for any grammatical mistakes I make here ;)

I own a Pearl Masters Custom drumset (http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showthread.php?p=1852410079#post1852410079) which i've bought in a german online-shop (http://www.rockshop.de) last year. I had some trouble with the kit, the finish on every wooden drum, Bassdrum and 4 Toms) started to crackle so the whole drumkit went back to Pearl in the Netherlands and they sent me a new one.
So far the history of my kit.

My problem is that is is absolutely impossible for me to get a sound out of my 16x14"-Tom that is free from strange "oing" souns - its hard to describe, but you can compare it with the sound a basketball makes when it hits the ground, i don't mean the "attak" of the ball but the "sustain"...
I've invested lots of money into different drumheads, I tried Pinstripe clear, Emperor coated, Ambassador clear and Ambassador coated with Dot in every possible combination on the batter- an resonant-side - without success. The same problems occur to my 14"-Tom (but way more less then on the 16"), and if I take a very close look at my 12"-Tom I can guess the same symptoms.

Because the 16"-Tom is the worst one (I cant even locate a specific frequency in my recording-software, its not possible to edit this "oing" out with EQing) I spent my whole attention to this one and checked it for damages, but I found nothing: the bearing edges are perfect, the shell is a drumshell and no egg, and the hardware has no visible failures, too.

The next step I did was ordering a pair of flanged hoops for the drum to eliminate the hoops as the source of the problem. Today this promising investion arrived - I removed the original MasterCast-Hoops and replaced them with the new ones: I got the same failure. Even when I get both heads completely out of tune and they have absolutely no tension the drum produces "oings".

The next thing I've tried was to turn the rubber-washers of the OptiMount-System around as described in the Tuning/head-choosing-Sticky in the Reference-Forum, but without success, there was no combination of "rubber-washer-directions" that was able to eliminate the "oing".

The last attempt was to completely remove the OptiMount-System and tune the drum - guess what? No success! Even if I mount only one drumhead I get a "light-verion" of this "oing"

I have quite a lot experience in the tuning of drums, is even get a unexpected good sound out of my mega-cheap-stagg-produced-10-years-old-drumkit.

I don't know what to do next, it seems that there is nothing more that I could try to make this Tom sound as great as it should, so I turn to you: what is wrong with my tom? If there is nothing wrong: why am I not able to tune a High-End-550€-Tom up to a better sound then a 80€-Tom?

[tomdrum]

Hi - sounds like you've tried just about everything ....but you could check one more thing. Although your bearing edge may be perfectly flat there is a very remote possibility that it could be out of square with the shell - this would cause any head placed on it to seat improperly..I cant believe this would be the case especially with Masters series drums, but I would check by first getting a metal ruler and measuring all the distances from the lug tops to the shell edge. The measurements should all be the exactly the same. For a second test you need a framing square. Set the drum on its bearing edge on a very flat surface and check it by placing the long leg of the square against the shell (gently now) and the short leg along the flat surface. If the bearing edge is not square you should be able to tell readily. Thats all i know to try that you havent done already. Good luck

[dlute]

One word: Moongel. These are little pieces of silicone that can be placed on a drumhead to take out the unwanted overtone frequencies. You can add as much as you want for the desired effect. Do a search of the PDF and you will find many players swearing by their use of this product. It is also very cheap to buy.

Give it a try. It just may solve your problem.

[SevenUmbrellas]

I'd say try the above suggestions, maybe try EVANS G1 coated/G1clear combo, although I doubt thats the real problem.

I use MOONGEL they're wonderfull and can be used on cymbals too :)


My 14" SONOR FORCE 2005 floor tom "sort of" makes "oings" but, its really just real long sustain of the primary note, still sounds great though. That drum has G2 coated/STOCK resonant combo with 1/2 moongells on the edge of the drum head.

Also maybe your drum isn't accutally 16"....it might be a little smaller...(F'up) You probably already checked that though......

[S86KMJ]

@Tomdrum:
What range do we talk about when measuring the distance lug <--> bearing edge? Are aberrations of about 1/2 mm tolerable? If not this might be the reason. I'll check it again and perhaps make a picture of it.
I haven't done the square-check yet, but I have a goniometer (don't know if its the right word, its a right angle made of steel *g*) here so I'll check this now.

@dlute:
I have already tried different dampening methods including Gaffatape, dampening rings (bought and self-made) and tissues, but without success.

[Nasrudin]

I'm no expert on the subject, but I've heard people discuss similar problems and I think they said having the inside of the shell sanded too smooth or having a thick lacquer on the inside can produce this "basketball" sound. But, like I said, I'm not an expert and I'm not sure what sort of options that would leave you with if it were the problem.

[S86KMJ]

This might be possible, and at the first look this explanation sounds quite good, but I have a good couter-example: look at the old Pearl Forum series, they have foiled shells and the inside is laquered with some really weired grainy laquer. The sound was everything but "oingy"...

Well, I initiated another step to get to a well sounding drum and called my former drum teacher, he will meet me on next Monday *g* I hope I still can learn something from him after 13 years of drum lessons :)
Somhow I dislike this because since I've stopped taking lessons from him I solved every drum-related problem on my own... extraordinary circumstances sometimes require extraordinary methods...

[tomdrum]

I don't think that a difference as small as .5 mm would be a red flag... I would still check the edge with a square and a flat surface. Your problem is really new to me (which after playing for over 40 years is unusual). Tuning and muting techniques generally are the best way to remove unwanted overtones, but I have seen some really weird stuff. Without being there its hard to know what to do to advise you. I have the same type drums except mine are a lot older. Check that all your lugs are secure against the shell. And the inside rings on the vent hole gromments on mine sometimes get loose and make some noise - I have to put a drop of super glue behind them. You took a lot of lessons from your former teacher - He must then be pretty knowledgable and should be able to help you....Good luck

[lovetheblues]

Try tune it a bit higher.

0.5mm is normal, no problem. I don't agree with the moongel suggestions; you can use it if you want to reduce the sustain, but that should be an option you should be able to choose. With those drums you should be able to tune it without moongel, and then add or remove moongel depending on the effect you want.

[DonChips]

Have you tried Evans Hydrualic heads? I get a heck of a lot of ring in my toms when I used Pinstripe heads. I now use the Evans heads on top with the Remo Emperor on the bottom and I get very little ring or over tones at all! They, for me, have a heavy thick power tom kind of tone I like when I'm mic'd or being recorded.

[bighairbigdrums]

Its your tuning.

[S86KMJ]

Yesterday evening I had a quite long conversation with a very experienced drummer from Germany who wrote the book "Drum Tuning". We went through different possible solutions to get this sound away, but without success.
What we have done is tuning the resonant head really, really high, alomst like a Snaredrum-reso. Then I tuned the batter head down to its dead point and tuned it upward in tiny steps (about 1/16th turns). He expected that the mysterious "Oing" will disappear, but it did not. I tried the whole thing today morning with different tunings of the resonant head and also tried it with tuning the batter head to a certain point and change the tuning of the resonant one, but there was absolutely NO point without "Oing".
Based on that result we came to the conclusion that there are only 2 possible remaining possibilities: the drumheads are damaged, or the tom is not in the condition it should be.

I will try another combination of drumheads, this time it will be a clear Diplomat as resonant head and something like an Evans G2 as a disproportional thicker head. If this does not solve the problem I will contact my dealer again assuming that the drum is defectious. If my suspicion confirms I will return the kit (if possible) or sell it, as my belief in Pearl finally trickled away...

[bighairbigdrums]

I still say its your tuning. You said that you have the same problems on at least 2 of your toms and maybe on a 3rd. The odds of you getting a Masters Custom set with 3 bad toms is highly unlikely.

Sounds to me like your tuning your resos wrong.

Take your 16 which is the drum your having the most problems with. Take it to another room. You take the drum to another room so yopu arent tempted to try and tune the drum to the rest of the kit, but to put the drum in tune with itself. Now take both heads off. Set the drum on a thick carpet with the reso side down. Put your batter on and tighten the lugs to were they are just touching the hoops. now using your star method and leaving the tom on the carpet tighten in 1/4 turns until you get the pitch you want. The reason for leaving the drum on the carpet is so your ears only hear the note not the "sound" of the drum. Now flip the drum over and do the same thing with your reso. Now mount the drum up and see how she sounds. If the tones of the two heads match you should get a nice round sound out of your drum with no boing. If your reso is to high it will boing, if its to low you will get the do-oom sound.

[S86KMJ]

I don't want to say anybody here is wrong, I rather appreciate every tip of you guys, really!! But I've never had drums which are this hard to tune. Maybe it is the room the drums are played in, it is not the best one, the ceiling is quite low and it is blank. There are a also few closets and a big window in the room, alltogether the conditions are not the best. I'll take all of the 4 Toms to my bands rehearsal room tomorrow. At the moment I have 2 great soundting Toms (10 and 12), one with a really litle oing (14) and the bad one, I'll see how they behave in a good sounding room, but for myself I have only a slight hope that I'll find the solution there...

Don't get me wrong, I am not the one who capitulates early, but my motivation is at some kind of a low-end-point because I see other drummers with their Rockstars or Pro-Ms having a great sound, then I turn around and all I see is a crappy bunch of basketballs instead of a highly orgasmic sounding drumkit...

[andy.dennis]

I had the same problem.

try using a double ply head for the RESONANT head, tuned low, and with some sort of dampening. (niether moongel or dampening rings will work for this as they will fall off) I use electrical tape. play around with different amounts and proximity to the center to further deaden the ring.

then find another double ply head for the batter. Aquarian are the deadest sounding heads- if your'e considering trying this, go with a 'double ply classic clear, power dot center'.

With the resonant head on tuned fairly low, slowly tune up the the batter until you get a good tone. this should give you a good sound without much ring. then play around with some moongel on the batter head.

this worked for me, i hope it works for you.

[lovetheblues]

Hmm... This is a bit intriguing.

Some suggestions above (including from me) that the issue might be your tuning, but by what you describe, you clearly know how to tune and you have also enlisted the help of someone who is very experienced at it, so we should elimiate that as a problem.

Some suggestions above to choose heads which are less open; more in-built dampening, or to use external dampening like moongel. Why would anyone buy high quality drums if you can't have the choice of an open resonant vs a dead muffled sound. Those muffled heads are good for hiding the flaws of bad drums, but I'd be pretty depressed if I paid good money for high quality drums and found those sorts of flaws. So I don't think that is the answer. Don't take offence, folks; the sound is a personal preference issue, so if you like that muffled sound go for it, but you should not be forced to use them if you have a high quality drum if you prefer a more open sound.

You have said in your opening post that you have already eliminated the Optimounts as a possible source of the problem. Perhaps it is worth double checking again. Just see if you can tune it with the drum off the optis. I have found those optis pretty poor in terms of making tuning much more finicky.

You have said this happens on at least 2 of your toms. So unlikely that the problem is a defective drum. But always a possibility I suppose, given that you purchased them 2nd hand so don't know their history. But unlikely.

The only remaining possibility is that your heads are end-of-life and need replacement (both sides, not just the batter side).

Sorry I am not really helping. I just find sometimes it makes things clearer to summarise the situation.

[ntime]

Are these 6 ply maple or 4 ply with re-rings? What heads are on there now? The room that you have them in could be the culprit for sure. When I played at church, my kit sat on the platform which put me much closer to an already low ceiling and the room walls were concrete block. I had always struggled to get a good drum sound. At that time I had a Pearl SMX and a Export EX. I took the Export which sounded great everywhere else and set it up in place of the SMX. The drum kit sounded horrible, I took a rack tom off and started striking the drum as I stepped off of the platform to see if it sounded any better. Once I began to go down the steps the drum sounded better and better. I ended up using the stock single ply heads and it sounded great. So, with all of this being said, the acoustics of your room will play a major role in your drum sound. Due to the fact you have been having the same issue with the smaller toms only to a lesser degree due to a smaller shell that will resonate for a shorter length of time than the 16x14. I hope the kit sounds better in a different room, if so then you`ll know that it`s not a defective drum or your tuning skills.

[S86KMJ]

I actually hope that it is my tuning and not a defective drum. My MMX is a 4 ply maple with re-rings. Today I took the Tom to my bands rehearsal room, i had only few time for tuning, but the result was the same as at home. I took a 5 years old and very worn out Pinstripe as a batter head and it seemed to become a little better, depending on how I tune the resonant head (still the Ambassador clar), but the Oing was always present.

Together with the G2 and the Diplomat I orderes 2 Yamaha tomstands for live situations when there is not enough room for my rack. These will allow me to take the toms everywhere I want to tune them, so I will try things like tuning outside, in our garage or everywhere else I can get them. There _must_ be a way to get this "oing" away :\

[PureRockFury]

Uhmm drums do ring, you know that right? They are meant to ring. If you hear nice warm, pure tones in videos or on cd's, it's because of eq. Drums don't sound anything like that in person.

I'm with bighairdrums on this one, I really think it's the tuning.

[ricohorton]

is the kit painted finish or wrap finish?

[andy.dennis]

is the kit painted finish or wrap finish?

yeah...

if it's blue- it probably won't tune properly.

but if it's red, you shouldn't have any issues.

[lovetheblues]

yeah...

if it's blue- it probably won't tune properly.

but if it's red, you shouldn't have any issues.


That's not right. Except on the tuesday after a full moon, then it is.

[S86KMJ]

To be honest, I already asked myself if the finish could be concerned with my problem because I already have had trouble with it. But when I thought about the physics of a drum an where the basic sound of the drumheads acquires the character of the shell I came to the conclusion that the more outside a ply lies the less influence does it have to the sound, and so does the lacquer finish do - tell me if I am wrong, but this appears logical to me :)

[bighairbigdrums]

The finish does not affect the sound of a drum in any appreciable way.


I still say your tuning the drums to high.

[ricohorton]

yeah...

if it's blue- it probably won't tune properly.

but if it's red, you shouldn't have any issues.
funny Andy- my point in asking what the finish is that if it is a wrap? it is known to choke the resonance of the wood shell more than a stained or painted shell. also if a wrap is too thick and the metal hoop of the batter and reso head is touching the shell it effects the resonance of the shell. thats why DW in finishing their shells with a wrap will totally glue the wrap to the shell making it one with the shell. you want a slight gap between metal hoop of the heads and the shell of the drum so that the sound generated by heads when struck travels into the shell of drum and not into the metal hoop of the head. the idea is to isolate the sound so that it travels into the wood and inside the drum and not get lost into other directions like hardware for example. thats why you see rubber gaskets on lugs so it isolates the shell from the hardware and suspension systems with rubber grommets so the sound does not travel into the mount of the drum but stays in the drum itself. do this take a small lamp or flash-lite and take one of your toms set on a table or the floor. and from above looking down between the drums hoop and the shell of the drum while shining the light from bellow the side of the drum check for the gap between the metal hoop of the head and the shell of the drum. if there is sufficient space and light showing then you will know that the heads are fitting properly for good resonance of the drum. this test works best with clear heads so you can observe the gap.

here is an example where the head did not fit properly due to the thick wrap of the drum. you can see the metal hoop of the head is right against the shell of the drum. sadly i had to return this MCX kit b/c i couldn't get it to tune properly for good tone.

[HOTFOOT]

One word: Moongel. These are little pieces of silicone that can be placed on a drumhead to take out the unwanted overtone frequencies. You can add as much as you want for the desired effect. Do a search of the PDF and you will find many players swearing by their use of this product. It is also very cheap to buy.

Give it a try. It just may solve your problem.


Thats what I would have said.

[ricohorton]

I had the same problem.

try using a double ply head for the RESONANT head, tuned low, and with some sort of dampening. (niether moongel or dampening rings will work for this as they will fall off) I use electrical tape. play around with different amounts and proximity to the center to further deaden the ring.

then find another double ply head for the batter. Aquarian are the deadest sounding heads- if your'e considering trying this, go with a 'double ply classic clear, power dot center'.

With the resonant head on tuned fairly low, slowly tune up the the batter until you get a good tone. this should give you a good sound without much ring. then play around with some moongel on the batter head.

this worked for me, i hope it works for you.
i do agree with Andy on this tip as i have tried myself in the past when trying to get rid of troublesome overing on some toms. i noticed that even Evans has brought out a head called EC-Reso head that helps control the oing. :D ;)
bob gatzen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ibBol23hs

in addition now if you do an experiment and cut a good size hole in the middle of the reso head allowing more air to move out then the tom will become like a concert tom and the tone you will get will be from the batter only. think of older phil collins - Genisis recordings.

[lovetheblues]

funny Andy- my point in asking what the finish is that if it is a wrap? it is known to choke the resonance of the wood shell more than a stained or painted shell. also if a wrap is too thick and the metal hoop of the batter and reso head is touching the shell it effects the resonance of the shell. thats why DW in finishing their shells with a wrap will totally glue the wrap to the shell making it one with the shell. you want a slight gap between metal hoop of the heads and the shell of the drum ....
Sorry, rico, I was also one who was a bit sarcastic.

It is not true that a wrap chokes a shell.

DW glues their wraps all the way around so that long-term no wrinkles or crinkling develop, not for any appreciable difference in sound.

I agree that the shell needs to be small enough so that the heads can fit over comfortably without the hoops touching to a certain extent, but that applies whether the finish is a wrap or a painted/laquered finish. (Note also that some drums which are iconic as being all-time classics are very tight fits e.g. the old 60s/70s Ludwig Acrolite or Supraphonics both of which are neither wrapped nor painted. Despite being very tight fits and the shell almost or actually touching the aluminium hoop, these are still accepted by many as the best snares and still widely recorded. Although I agree that such a tight fit is not ideal)

But for sorry being sarcastic about it. I did not realize that you were serious, else I would have put across my view more clearly.

[ricohorton]

Sorry, rico, I was also one who was a bit sarcastic.

It is not true that a wrap chokes a shell.

DW glues their wraps all the way around so that long-term no wrinkles or crinkling develop, not for any appreciable difference in sound.

I agree that the shell needs to be small enough so that the heads can fit over comfortably without the hoops touching to a certain extent, but that applies whether the finish is a wrap or a painted/laquered finish. (Note also that some drums which are iconic as being all-time classics are very tight fits e.g. the old 60s/70s Ludwig Acrolite or Supraphonics both of which are neither wrapped nor painted. Despite being very tight fits and the shell almost or actually touching the aluminium hoop, these are still accepted by many as the best snares and still widely recorded. Although I agree that such a tight fit is not ideal)

But for sorry being sarcastic about it. I did not realize that you were serious, else I would have put across my view more clearly.
oh no offense taken but it did make me realize i needed to explain why the question so thanks for that..
well i used to own a set of DW drums that were finish-ply and i specifically remember John Good talking about their finish ply process and how it does not choke their shells due to the rolled on glued process DW uses. now that was back when they were giving out their DW tour VHS tapes with the kits but things may have changed in their marketing this idea by now. but to me proof is in the pudding. drum shells in general resonate better if not covered, its like hitting a drum with a stick for example and then placing your hand on the shell before its done resonating. notice the difference?
Bob here discusses the sensitivity of a drum shell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4Jnl9PYKQ

might as well put his bass drum one here as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm0_ouF3uPY

[S86KMJ]

I have been at my dealer yesterday and showed them my drum and the myseruim connected with it. We tuned it completely down, batter and reso to the same tone, and voila: the oing disappeared - in my opinion the tom sounded even better then a DW collectors maple GR 16"x14"-tom we tuned exactly the same way. It is strange, but my room seems to reflect exactly those frequencies I don't wanna hear...

OK, thank you very much for your help, knowing that my drums are all ok makes me a very happy person :P