Hoop Downgrade

[24K gold]

Is there any reason why Tama are able to sell Superstars series drums with Die Cast and Pearl can't at least use Superhoops on Visions? :confused:

Is there a business reason for that? I still think the I.S.S. is cool but... the hoops... oh man... :rolleyes: that was a serious downgrade.

[NYR Fan]

24, as a guy who's had Supes and now owns a Vision, you've got a valid point here. Believe me, the Visions make up for "things" in other areas but the hoops are not much more than paper-weights IMO. I was fortunate in that I had SuperHoops left over from my Sessions Kit that I converted over to Mastercast. I did buy Optis though, no ISS for me. With 2.3 hoops and Optis it's tough not to go Visions, it was easy for me.

[AL PERCIVAL]

Is there any reason why Tama are able to sell Superstars series drums with Die Cast and Pearl can't at least use Superhoops on Visions? :confused:

Is there a business reason for that? I still think the I.S.S. is cool but... the hoops... oh man... :rolleyes: that was a serious downgrade.

The Tama superstar price points (both lacquered and covered kits) are on average $150.00 more than Vision. Not upgrading the hoops on Vision helps Pearl compete with Mapex, Tama, Gretsch and Yamaha in the midpriced drum kit classification price comparision grids.

I agree with you 110% with the Sessions discontinuance, I wish we'd upgrade Vision (and ECX Custom for that matter) to 2.3 triple flanged hoops, leaving the 1.6 steel hoops on the regular Export and FX Forum kits.

[24K gold]

Ah. Point taken Al. Thanks a bunch.

[fezzasus]

Don't think of die cast hoops as a sonic upgrade to triple flange. They are simply an increase in price and a change in sound. There are plenty of great drums that sound best with triple flange such as. DW, Yamaha Maple custom and 9000 series and craviotto

I do agree that they should have been changed to 2.3mm though.

[dis330]

The Tama superstar price points (both lacquered and covered kits) are on average $150.00 more than Vision. Not upgrading the hoops on Vision helps Pearl compete with Mapex, Tama, Gretsch and Yamaha in the midpriced drum kit classification price comparision grids.

I agree with you 110% with the Sessions discontinuance, I wish we'd upgrade Vision (and ECX Custom for that matter) to 2.3 triple flanged hoops, leaving the 1.6 steel hoops on the regular Export and FX Forum kits.

There is only a $30 difference between the Superstar and Vision pricepoint. Superstar lacquered ($929 street), Vison lacquered ($899 street). That close, it seems that the 2.3mm hoops should be included when comparing features to price. I'm sure there are MANY other factors to consider when determining price. I suspect the SuperhoopIIs will be the first upgrade in the series w/Opti-mounts and 100% birch shells running a close second. IMHO, the Visions could go a bit higher and still remain competitive.

[Diofter]

The Tama superstar price points (both lacquered and covered kits) are on average $150.00 more than Vision. Not upgrading the hoops on Vision helps Pearl compete with Mapex, Tama, Gretsch and Yamaha in the midpriced drum kit classification price comparision grids.

I agree with you 110% with the Sessions discontinuance, I wish we'd upgrade Vision (and ECX Custom for that matter) to 2.3 triple flanged hoops, leaving the 1.6 steel hoops on the regular Export and FX Forum kits.
Here in europe visions VLX go for 1000+ that's the price of the laquered Superstar. Overall I think Visions are great as every intermediate drumkit at least for guys like me that drum for fun and are not professionals.

[24K gold]

There is only a $30 difference between the Superstar and Vision pricepoint. Superstar lacquered ($929 street), Vison lacquered ($899 street). That close, it seems that the 2.3mm hoops should be included when comparing features to price. I'm sure there are MANY other factors to consider when determining price. I suspect the SuperhoopIIs will be the first upgrade in the series w/Opti-mounts and 100% birch shells running a close second. IMHO, the Visions could go a bit higher and still remain competitive.

I can't see Pearl coming out with 100% Birch Visions. I think it would make more sense if Pearl reserved 100% Birch shells for BCX Birch Masters. I think the pricing gap between the ECX and MCX is too wide. BCX should fix that gap.

I also cannot see pearl upgrading Visions with Optimounts. If we were to have 2.3mm hoops and Optimouts. I think that would jack the price up too high. Just my opinion.

[AL PERCIVAL]

There is only a $30 difference between the Superstar and Vision pricepoint. Superstar lacquered ($929 street), Vison lacquered ($899 street). That close, it seems that the 2.3mm hoops should be included when comparing features to price. I'm sure there are MANY other factors to consider when determining price.

I'm quoting retail pricing not street pricing. Every dealer sells at different pricing (some higher some lower).

[AL PERCIVAL]

I can't see Pearl coming out with 100% Birch Visions. I think it would make more sense if Pearl reserved 100% Birch shells for BCX Birch Masters. I think the pricing gap between the ECX and MCX is too wide. BCX should fix that gap.

I also cannot see pearl upgrading Visions with Optimounts. If we were to have 2.3mm hoops and Optimouts. I think that would jack the price up too high. Just my opinion.

We have lots of changes/idea's hanging in the balance in all our kit categories for 2008. Some decisions have been made, others still being decided on. Overall, I think most will be happy with our 2008 offerings. We are continuing to move in the right direction I believe. I saw one new Vision finish offering that if approved will knock your socks off. :) (don't PM and ask because I will not tell), just know that we are out there, listening, seeing what is written on these forum pages and responding. :) ;)

That's all I'll say at the moment. NAMM is only 3 1/2 months away, in a blink of an eye, it will be here. Hang in there! :)

[TWH]

Something else here to consider....
Drummers these days seem to be more particular in the sound of their drums. By only offering 1.6mm hoops on the Visions and ECX's, It seems like Pearl is leaving the option up to the customer as to the type of hoop they'll want (after purchase). Stock, Superhoop II, Mastercast, or even the new S-Hoop. This way, they can dial in the specific sound they're looking for. This also keeps the cost much lower. Even though upgrading to Die-cast hoops will require Optimounts, that in itself is a much better mounting system than the ISS.

It's kinda like buying a new set of wheels and tires for your car. You get a little bling, along with better performance.


Where can we get free tickets to NAMM?? :D ;)

[The Dorian]

Visions sound better.

[TWH]

We have lots of changes/idea's hanging in the balance in all our kit categories for 2008. Some decisions have been made, others still being decided on. Overall, I think most will be happy with our 2008 offerings. We are continuing to move in the right direction I believe. I saw one new Vision finish offering that if approved will knock your socks off. (don't PM and ask because I will not tell), just know that we are out there, listening, seeing what is written on these forum pages and responding.


1000 series bass drum cup holders?? :p :D

[Acornz]

^^^^ Lol, what about a 1000 series iPod holder? Al, i don't know if you can tell me this but when are you planning on discontinuing the Visions? Just wondering.

[AL PERCIVAL]

1000 series bass drum cup holders?? :p :D

no, we nix'd that for something better! :)

[AL PERCIVAL]

^^^^ Lol, what about a 1000 series iPod holder? Al, i don't know if you can tell me this but when are you planning on discontinuing the Visions? Just wondering.

The Visions were introduced this year (2007) we have no plans on discontinuing them.

[24K gold]

We have lots of changes/idea's hanging in the balance in all our kit categories for 2008. Some decisions have been made, others still being decided on. Overall, I think most will be happy with our 2008 offerings. We are continuing to move in the right direction I believe. I saw one new Vision finish offering that if approved will knock your socks off. :) (don't PM and ask because I will not tell), just know that we are out there, listening, seeing what is written on these forum pages and responding. :) ;)

That's all I'll say at the moment. NAMM is only 3 1/2 months away, in a blink of an eye, it will be here. Hang in there! :)


I'm going to start saving more money then. :D

[skywalker2]

Something else here to consider....
Drummers these days seem to be more particular in the sound of their drums. By only offering 1.6mm hoops on the Visions and ECX's, It seems like Pearl is leaving the option up to the customer as to the type of hoop they'll want (after purchase). Stock, Superhoop II, Mastercast, or even the new S-Hoop. This way, they can dial in the specific sound they're looking for. This also keeps the cost much lower. Even though upgrading to Die-cast hoops will require Optimounts, that in itself is a much better mounting system than the ISS.

It's kinda like buying a new set of wheels and tires for your car. You get a little bling, along with better performance.


Where can we get free tickets to NAMM?? :D ;)



such a valid point. changing your hoops back to flanged would be pretty darn inconvinient for supe owners (some of you may cringe at the thought, but like its been said before; die casts>triple flanged=not true.)

[skywalker2]

We have lots of changes/idea's hanging in the balance in all our kit categories for 2008. Some decisions have been made, others still being decided on. Overall, I think most will be happy with our 2008 offerings. We are continuing to move in the right direction I believe. I saw one new Vision finish offering that if approved will knock your socks off. :) (don't PM and ask because I will not tell), just know that we are out there, listening, seeing what is written on these forum pages and responding. :) ;)

That's all I'll say at the moment. NAMM is only 3 1/2 months away, in a blink of an eye, it will be here. Hang in there! :)



very happy to hear about this al! do i smell 2.3's or a four piece or 5 piece with 2 floors config coming up? ;) don't worry, i wont pm you. (but if you feel like releasing some info, my inbox is free! :D )


i think that after next year, the visions will be even better. Granted there are still some losers who will find something to gripe about. :rolleyes:

[AL PERCIVAL]

very happy to hear about this al! do i smell 2.3's or a four piece or 5 piece with 2 floors config coming up? ;) don't worry, i wont pm you. (but if you feel like releasing some info, my inbox is free! :D )


i think that after next year, the visions will be even better. Granted there are still some losers who will find something to gripe about. :rolleyes:

All I can say is, you will love the 2008 Vision series and the skeptic's will be leaving in droves..... :)

[The Dorian]

All I can say is, you will love the 2008 Vision series and the skeptic's will be leaving in droves..... :)

:( I hate suspense...

Even though I already have my Vision.

[skywalker2]

All I can say is, you will love the 2008 Vision series and the skeptic's will be leaving in droves..... :)



awesome! i can't wait al! look like our threads did some good! ;)

[skywalker2]

:( I hate suspense...

Even though I already have my Vision.


yeah me too!


drummerman, will you regret your purchase if they do come out with a setup/color/features that your visions lack?


color is a personal thing, so i guess it rules that out, same thing with setups, but what if they come with a simple version of optis, or the iss system with 2.3's? Would you be dissapointed? or would you just upgrade the actual parts themselves?

[NYR Fan]

D-man, do your own upgrade. That's what I did. Supe-hoops and Opti's. I also purchased new heads but the ProTones actually sound good, a little heavy, but I'll use 'em. Opti's go about $30 a pop, hoops can be found in a couple places. You won't be disappointed, I absolutely love my kit and it's not even set up yet!

[dis330]

D-man, do your own upgrade. That's what I did. Supe-hoops and Opti's. I also purchased new heads but the ProTones actually sound good, a little heavy, but I'll use 'em. Opti's go about $30 a pop, hoops can be found in a couple places. You won't be disappointed, I absolutely love my kit and it's not even set up yet!

Check out Ebay in a couple of days (Saturday at the latest). I'm listing some Superhoop IIs and Opti-mounts I bought to upgrade an Export and never used. All is still in factory fresh/unuded condition.

[sparkie]

if al is still on this thread, what i would love to see is satin hardware on the master's again. why did you guy's stop it?, i die a little bit inside everytime i see lildrummer1987's kit and think 'we will never see something like that again'.

[24K gold]

if al is still on this thread, what i would love to see is satin hardware on the master's again. why did you guy's stop it?, i die a little bit inside everytime i see lildrummer1987's kit and think 'we will never see something like that again'.

I don't think that's ever going to happen. From what I've heard, Satin wasn't as popular as black or gold or something like that.

I've been asking Gene and Slip about gold stands for a while and.... still nothing. They discontinued it like four years ago. It was recently reintroduced at Musikmesse last year, I think, and I asked Gene if that means it's available for purchase... NOPE! 00**

DW now makes gold hardwares and I'm angry about it. But, what can I do.

[sparkie]

i dont care that much if the actual stand's are not satin, i just want satin lug's,hoop's and spur's. just the part's that are stuck to the drum.

[24K gold]

i dont care that much if the actual stand's are not satin, i just want satin lug's,hoop's and spur's. just the part's that are stuck to the drum.


Yep. Still... discontinued. I sympathize with you.

[Stevie D]

It's good to know that Pearl is taking a serious consideration with our "We Want Pearl to Make..." Threads.

I guarantee the Tama Forum doesn't have that kind of bond with Tama, as this forum does with Pearl (Even if a lot of members don't play Pearl...)

[NYR Fan]

Something for Al and the guys at Pearl to consider for the Visions of '08. Memory Locks on the floor tom legs. I had some old Sonor locks that happened to fit which I will use on my kit. Memo locks on a gigging kit are an absolute necessity!

[Mr.BoJangles]

Great, just bought a Visions, now we're told about a sexy new finish to be released....grrr.

[24K gold]

Great, just bought a Visions, now we're told about a sexy new finish to be released....grrr.

I'll give you some advice. Never EVER buy the first generation products. First generation products always acts as tester products, to test the waters and find flaws. I would at least wait until the second generation products or the first upgrade arrives.

[skywalker2]

/\/\/\
very true. as al has mentioned before, a lot of the visions use extra leftover exr wrap and the existing rims and iss mounts as well.


it may be far fetched to say that a whole new mounting system will come out (by 'new' i mean not currently offered on the vision), but i can see 2.3's with the 2.3mm compatible iss on the new visions. as well as some more interesting sparkles and fades.

[AL PERCIVAL]

I'll give you some advice. Never EVER buy the first generation products. First generation products always acts as tester products, to test the waters and find flaws. I would at least wait until the second generation products or the first upgrade arrives.


Its a catch-22. Before the Holidays, I always tell folks to wait and not impulse buy because NAMM is just around the corner and there is always something new (from all manufactures). Retailers drop prices during the holidays to get you to buy their year end clearence.

[TWH]

Its a catch-22. Before the Holidays, I always tell folks to wait and not impulse buy because NAMM is just around the corner and there is always something new (from all manufactures). Retailers drop prices during the holidays to get you to buy their year end clearence.

Yep, think I might have to put the Visions set on hold til after NAMM. Might just get an EBAY export kit to practice on for now.


AL, you can send my free NAMM tickets in the mail.... :p :D

[EricLThomp]

Al, do you have an educated guess as to what day or at least within a few week timeframe that the new Visions would be released in '08? Also just guessing, do you think the pricepoint will be pretty much the same?

[skywalker2]

the pricepoint shouldn't change much, if at all.

[24K gold]

the pricepoint shouldn't change much, if at all.

It better not :D

[AL PERCIVAL]

the pricepoint shouldn't change much, if at all.

The price points shouldn't change on the VLX or VSX next year.

[EricLThomp]

The price points shouldn't change on the VLX or VSX next year.


I'm chompin' to see what you guys cook up...Should they be released in what, late 1st quarter/early 2nd quarter or so?

[AL PERCIVAL]

I'm chompin' to see what you guys cook up...Should they be released in what, late 1st quarter/early 2nd quarter or so?

I think I heard mid to late February early March time frame (in USA) but don't quote me on that just yet. You are going to like what we've done to Vision series in only its second year.

[EricLThomp]

I think I heard mid to late February early March time frame (in USA) but don't quote me on that just yet. You are going to like what we've done to Vision series in only its second year.


CAN HARDLY WAIT! Bring them on!

I know where my income tax check is going! :)

[kayaun]

I'm excited too. I really hope they'll come with 2.3s, at the very least. 1.6mms look very unstable, considering the ISS is mounted to these teeny weeny fragile hoops. I've heard complaints about them bending with the ISS.

Another thing I really hope for would be new colours, wraps, just like the old export. Some of the most beautiful finishes(in that price range) were available then, for example prism purples, green fades, cobalt fades and black bursts.

The last thing I'd totally dream about is the option of black hardware being available again with the new Vision series drums. I specifically mentioned OPTION because I'd love to be able to choose which finish I want with what coloured hardware, instead of these finish/hardware colour combinations being done by default. I'd love to be able to choose a strata red or white with black hardware for example. :) Or a cobalt fade white chrome hardware.

Well, I guess that's what most of us want back. Me, at least. I really hope Al is listening here. ;)

Cheers,
KayAun

[Erik6387]

Seeing as we already have the gong bass, why not offer a bong bass? Who wouldn't want a 22"x 26" bong bass?

[drumtechdad]

Originally Posted by NYR Fan:
D-man, do your own upgrade. That's what I did. Supe-hoops and Opti's. I also purchased new heads but the ProTones actually sound good, a little heavy, but I'll use 'em. Opti's go about $30 a pop, hoops can be found in a couple places. You won't be disappointed, I absolutely love my kit and it's not even set up yet!

Truth. I upgraded to optimounts on my ECX--best bang for the buck I ever spent on a drumset. Superhoops next.

At that point I will still come in under what the SMX would have cost, with identical shells.

[big daddy cool]

if you check with DW , there small toms have 1.65 hoops. and graduates in thickness as the drum gets larger . there is nothing terribly wrong with the 1.6 hoops , although i do think a different mount is needed ,due to the stress an ISS exerts at a particular point....

[kayaun]

if you check with DW , there small toms have 1.65 hoops. and graduates in thickness as the drum gets larger . there is nothing terribly wrong with the 1.6 hoops , although i do think a different mount is needed ,due to the stress an ISS exerts at a particular point....
I agree with you on this. Yes the ISS seems to exert too much force on the 1.6hoop, considering the weight is not evenly distributed around the hoop like RIMS, Tama Starcast Mounting Systems and even other brands like DW and Mapex.

Personally, I think upgrading the ISS to Optimounts on the Vision Series drums will be a bit too much to ask, from the track record that the Optimounts were offered with the semi to professional series of drums like the Masters and Sessions.

I feel however, that the Export ECX SHOULD come with Optimounts instead of ISSes because it simply falls into that category, IMO.

But asking for Optimounts on the Vision Series seems a bit too much, personally. I don't think Pearl will offer that to us. Anyway, I guess what I'm hoping for is 2.3mm hoops on Visions instead of pathetic, flimsy 1.6mms.

I think that the 1.6mm hoops should be left for the lower series drums like the Export EX and Forum FX. It seems like such a waste to spoil the whole package of the Vision series drums by using flimsy 1.6s on them.

I have no problem with the ISS mounting system and I think it's perfect for toms below 12". I don't plan to get any racks above 12" anyway. ;) So it's fine for me. Haha. The bigger toms however(>14"), could bring trouble with the ISS system because of the weight it's supporting on those flimsy 1.6s.

I I decided to get a 14" tom I'd definitely run it on an optimount. It's not expensive to do so anyway. Just my 2cents.

Cheers,
KayAun

[AL PERCIVAL]

Well, I guess that's what most of us want back. Me, at least. I really hope Al is listening here. ;)

Cheers,
KayAun


I'm listening loud & clear!..... :D ;)

[NYR Fan]

Hey Guys, just wondering? A Bong Bass?

[kayaun]

I'm listening loud & clear!..... :D ;)
Thanks AL. Really appreciate Pearl people like you. :D Always listening. Keep it up! :) There's no other drum company as fantastic as Pearl, IMO. ;) The amount of effort you guys put in to please customers like us. :cool: Just amazing...
*sobs...*

Regards,
KayAun

[AL PERCIVAL]

Thanks AL. Really appreciate Pearl people like you. :D Always listening. Keep it up! :) There's no other drum company as fantastic as Pearl, IMO. ;) The amount of effort you guys put in to please customers like us. :cool: Just amazing...
*sobs...*

Regards,
KayAun

Thanks KayAun. I try to stay in on top of things. Everytime I see a "one-off" question, it doesn't go unnoticed. I go to the appropriate people at Pearl and simply ask "Can we do this?" . Even before I worked here at Pearl, I loved the idea of the PDF that it could reach out to all four corners of the globe bringing our drumming community together to talk about what we all love drums - whether its Tama, Yamaha, Sonor, Ludwig, Highwood UK, Pearl etc....

I think we have a good 2008 in store for you. I think alot of things we are doing this year, Pearl and non-Pearl players alike are going to stand up and take notice. I saw a new color yesterday that just blew my mind. I thought it was just another one of those prototypes samples we get it from time to time. Turns out its new for 2008! You can count on me burning the midnight oil to bring you everything NAMM 2008 when it's time. I'm really stoked!

[kayaun]

Thanks KayAun. I try to stay in on top of things. Everytime I see a "one-off" question, it doesn't go unnoticed. I go to the appropriate people at Pearl and simply ask "Can we do this?" . Even before I worked here at Pearl, I loved the idea of the PDF that it could reach out to all four corners of the globe bringing our drumming community together to talk about what we all love drums - whether its Tama, Yamaha, Sonor, Ludwig, Highwood UK, Pearl etc....

I think we have a good 2008 in store for you. I think alot of things we are doing this year, Pearl and non-Pearl players alike are going to stand up and take notice. I saw a new color yesterday that just blew my mind. I thought it was just another one of those prototypes samples we get it from time to time. Turns out its new for 2008! You can count on me burning the midnight oil to bring you everything NAMM 2008 when it's time. I'm really stoked!
Haha. Looking forward to 2008! Too bad our local dealer here in Malaysia sucks. You won't believe it if I told you I haven't seen a single vision kit here yet. Sad to say, but it's true. Even drums like the Reference series aren't available here. I haven't seen one yet. Most of these more expensive kits have to be custom ordered and will take about 1-2years to bring over. If I ever get my kit I'm gonna order it straight from the US.

Sigh... I guess these new things won't be much of a difference for us here. But it's just nice to see Pearl come up with something new, again, you know. Sorta makes my dreams become more and more wild. ;) Haha. I love drums! What can I say? :D

Cheers,
KayAun