The official "How Recording Works" thread

[Butnutz]

Check it out,
weather you care or not, i feel complied to state that by trade, i am a professional recording engineer. I went to school(2 actually), have degrees, and have been working in this field approaching 10 years. I have worked in some of the biggest studios in the New York/NJ area.
The starting of this new sub-forum is an excellent opportunity for people here who are interested to gather important and CORRECT information, and since it hasnt yet been done, i feel it should be in one thread.
this is not going to be a thread about how to mic drums, or what interface/mixer/module to buy. This is going to be technical details in laymans terms, and important information regarding recording.

Step 1. The signal chain:
A "Signal Chain" is the path your audio follows, from sound source, to the recording device, and back out of your monitors[speakers to you civilians ;)]

A typical complete signal chain might go something like this:

1] instrument/sound source
2] Microphone/Transducer/Pickup
3] Cable
4] Mic Preamp/DI Box
5] Analog-to-Digital Converter
6] Digital transmission medium[digital data get recoded for usb or FW transfer]
7] Digital recording Device
8] DSP and Digital summing/playback engine
9] Digital-to-Analog Converter
10] Analog output stage[line outputs and output gain/volume control]
11] Monitors/Playback device[headphones/other transducers]


Important Terms, Definitions, and explanations[this will be where the "core" information is]:

1] AD Conversion: the process by which the electrical signal is "converted" to a stream of digital code[binary, 1 and 0]. This is accomplished, basically, by taking digital pictures of the audio...and this is known as the "sampling rate/frequency" The number of "pictures" determines the frequency. So the CD standard of 44.1k is 44,100 "pictures" per second of digital code that represents the electrical "wave" of audio.
it should be noted that in order to reproduce a frequency accuratly, the sampling rate must be TWICE that of the desired frequency. So, a 44.1 digital audio device can, in fact, only record frequencies as high as 22.05khz, and in the real world, the actual upper frequency limit is lower, because the AD device employs a LOW-PASS filter to protect the circuitry from distortion and digital errors called "ALIASING."
confused yet?

2] DA conversion: the process by which the digital code[the code that represents the electrical "wave"] is transformed back into electrcal energy in the proper shape. In a oversimplified explanation, the code is measured and the output of the convertor reflects the value of the code by changing voltage.

3] Cables: An often overlooked expense and tool, cables can in fact, make or break your recording. The multitudes of types of cable are determined by the connector, the gauge(thickness), shielding, type of conductor, etc...
Just some bullet points on cables:

-Always get the highest quality cabling you can afford. Low quality cables often employ shielding that doesnt efectively protect against AC hums(60 cycle hum), RF interference(causing your cable to act as a gigantic AM/CB radio antenna), or grounding noise introduced by other components in your system.

-The way cables are coiled and treated can determine their lifespan and effectiveness. A kinked cable can mean a broken shield, again, causing noise problems.

-the standard in the USA for wiring an XLR(standard microphone) cable is:
PIN 1= Cold/-, PIN 2= Hot/+, PIN 3=Ground/shield.
-pin 3 carries phantom power, so it is important that the shield of your cables be intact and in good condition if you want to use your mic cables without any problems.

-Cables for LINE LEVEL and HI-Z(instrument level) gear are not the same!
-Line Level Gear, weather professional or consumer, should generally be used with balanced cables(on a 1/4" connector, it will have 3 sections, known as TRS-or- TipRingSleeve)...a balanced 1/4" is essentially the same as a microphone cable, and in fact, most Professional gear with balanced line inputs and outputs will have XLR connectors instead of 1/4" connectors.

-Hi-Z cable for instruments(guitars, basses, keyboards, or anything with a pickup) is UNBALANCED, and should be so. the introduction of a balanced cable can cause electricity to be sent backwards into a guitar and shock the guitar player. you dont want this to happen, especially on stage, where the voltage CAN BE LETHAL. When running a guitar/bass/keyboard "Direct" into your interface, soundcard, or recording device, you should ALWAYS use a "DIRECT BOX", which uses a transformer to isolate and balance the the signal. It also changes some electrical properties, resulting in a LINE LEVEL output.

4] Digital Data Transmissions:
this includes S/PDIF, AES/EBU, ADAT, MADI.
im gonna give a brief overview of this stuff, since its unlikely that alot of you will ever really have to think about it.

-SDPIF= Sony Phillips Digital Interface Format. using RCA or TOSLINK connectors, this is a digital protocol that carries 3 streams of information. Digital audio Left, Digital Audio Right, and CLOCK. SPDIF generally supports 48khz/20bit information, though some modern devices can support up to 24bits, and up to 88.2khz. SPDIF is the consumer format of AES/EBU

-AES/EBU= Audio Engineering Society/European Breadcasters Union Digital protocol uses a special type of cable often terminated with XLR connectors to transmit 2 channels of Digital Audio. AES/EBU is found mostly on expensive professional digital gear.

-ADAT= the Alesis Digital Audio Tape was introduced in 1991, and was the first casette based system capable of recording 8 channels of digital audio onto a single cartridge(a SUPER-VHS tape, same one used by high quality VCR's). Enough of the history, its not so important because we are talking about ADAT-LIGHTPIPE Protocol, which is a digital transmission protocol that uses fiberoptic cable and devices to send up to 8 channels of digital audio simultaneously and in sync. ADAT-Lightpipe supports up to 48khz sample rates.

-MADI is something you will almost never encounter. It is a protocol that allows up to 64 channels of digital audio to be transmitted over a single cable that is terminated by BNC connectors. Im just telling you it exists so in case you ever encounter a digital snake that doesnt use Gigabit Ethernet, you will know whats going on.

digital transmission specs:
SPDIF -> clock->2Ch->RCA cable(consumer)
ADAT-Lightpipe->clock->8Ch->Toslink(semi-pro)
SPDIF-OPTICAL->clock->2Ch->Toslink(consumer)
AES/EBU->clock->2Ch->XLR(Pro)
TDIF->clock->8Ch->DSub(Semi-Pro)
______________
MADI->no clock->64Ch->BNC{rare except in large scale pofessional apps}
SDIF-II->no clock->24Ch->DSub{rare!}
AES/EBU-13->no clock->24Ch->DSub

and now everyones favorite topic:

5] MICROPHONES!
there are many types of microphones, and several names for each type.

a] Dynamic Microphones utilize polarized magnets to convert acoustical energy into electrical energy.
there are 2 types of dynamic microphones:
-Moving Coil microphones are the most common type of microphone made. They are also durable, and capable of handling VERY HIGH SPL(sound pressure levels)

-Ribbon microphones are rare except in professional recording studios. Ribbon microphones are also incredibly fragile. NEVER EVER USE PHANTOM POWER WITH A RIBBON MICROPHONE, IT WILL DIE. Sometimes it might even smoke or shoot out a few sparks.
applying phantom power to a Ribbon Microphone will literally cause the ribbon, which is normally made from Aluminum, to MELT.
Also, windblasts and plosives can rip the ribbon, so these microphones are not suitible for things like horns, woodwinds, vocals, kick drums, or anything that "pushes air."

B] Condenser/Capacitor Microphones.
-a condenser microphone uses an electrostatic charge to convert acoustical energy into electrical energy.
-the movement of the diaphragm(often metal coated mylar) toward a ceramic "backplate" causes a fluctuation in the charge, which is then amplified inside the microphone and output as an electrical signal.
-Condenser microphones use phantom power to charge the capacitors and backplate in order to maintain the electrostatic charge.

there are several types of condenser microphones:
1] Tube Condenser Microphones
-Historically, this type of microphone has been used in studios since the 1940s, and has been refined and redesigned hundreds, if not thousands of times.
-Some of the "best sounding" and most desired microphones EVER MADE are Tube Condenser microphones from the 50's and 60's. These vintage microphones, in good condition, with the original TUBES can sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
-tube mics are known for sounding "full", "warm", and having a particular character, depending on the exact microphone. No 2 tubes mics, even of the same model, will sound the same. Similar, but not the same.
-tube mics have their own power supplies, which are not interchangeable to different models. Each tube mic is a different design, and therefore, has different power requirements.

2] FET Condenser microphones
-FET stands for "Field Effect Transistor"
-FET technology allowed condenser microphones to be miniturized. Take for example, the SHURE beta98s/d, which is a minicondenser microphone.
-FET technology is generally more transparant than tube technology, but can sometimes sound "harsh" or "sterile"

3] Electret Condenser Microphones
-this is a condenser microphone that has a permanent charge, and therefore, does not require phantom power, however, the charge is not truly permanent, and these mics often use AA or 9V batteries, either inside the mic, or on a beltpack.

MORE TO COME ABOUT MICS SOON...STUFF ABOUT POLAR PATTERNS, PADS, PHASE, ETC...

[NStarr]

Sweet. Someone must sticky this.

[SMX_Dizzy]

I'm definitely going to be reading this. This is going to be a great thread, one that will have to be stickied.

[Butnutz]

bump!

i updated the original post, more to come very soon.

[surftex363]

thanks alot

forget my thread, this is the one to look at

[Funky Animal]

Wow, that's a lot man!

[Tju85]

Thanks for the time to write this up.

I'm sure it will benifit alot of people, as it has already helped me.

[Butnutz]

hey, thanks to all of you who gave me rep, ill return it shortly...i am going to type up some more stuff and condense alot of my notes into a more understandable format.

-nutz

[SMX_Dizzy]

This is amazing, and thanks a ton for it...but to make it more readable and easier to follow, could you bold/italicize some things? :)

[Butnutz]

This is amazing, and thanks a ton for it...but to make it more readable and easier to follow, could you bold/italicize some things? :)

yes, i am actually delaying the next update because i wanted to format it...i might type everything up and attch as .pdf documents or something, because i share your pain with reading long unformatted txt online.
thanks for the heads up, ill get on it ASAP!

[Drummer_Guy]

ButNutz!!!


You could just refer them to the book: "Modern Recording Techniques 6"

Very huge informative book about ALL things recording. You and I should talk some. Your field is definitly my goal. PM me with some info about your usual work!!!

[Butnutz]

ButNutz!!!


You could just refer them to the book: "Modern Recording Techniques 6"

Very huge informative book about ALL things recording. You and I should talk some. Your field is definitly my goal. PM me with some info about your usual work!!!

eh, i could refer people, but that would defeat the point of having a thread, and probably only 1 in 10 would actually go out and buy the book anyway. besides, this is an excercise in being up-to-date for me, as it has been forcing me to do some research on the newest digital standards and products, which, as im sure you have been told or know, are constantly evolving...6 months out of date might as well be 6 years. ill PM you shortly...im in the middle of a mix and this is is my 15 minute coffee, water, pee, and internet break[yes, all roughly at the same time.]

[DeadSkinMask]

Butnutz, if you are redoing this or updating it, submit a new thread and I will Sticky it..very informative material that everyone should read..thanks for taking the time to type that up..

[Butnutz]

DSM, ill be updating it and adding additional information as soon as i have the time. ill let you know.
thanks

[Butnutz]

Whats up folks, installment #2 with alot of information on microphones.

I know, its hard to read without formatting, but im seriously working on putting together a PDF package with diagrams, but it might take a long time, so for now, i suppose yall can make due.


Further Information About microphones that you should know:

1] Polar Patterns
-Microphones, as i am about to explain, are very sensitive to the sound in their environment. This is not to say that a microphone will transduce all sounds in a room, but a microphone will pick up sounds that are oriented properly to its capsule. This is known as “Axial Response”, and you will commonly hear microphones being referred to as “on axis” and “off axis (by ____ degrees)”.
It is im portant to understand that A/C [alternating current] electricity is measured in 360 degrees, very much like a circle in geometry. It should be noted that microphone statistics and charts will actually use a circle to notate what the shape of the microphones’ pickup will be. The shape is known as the POLAR PATTERN.
-Common Polar Patterns are:
a] Cardioid
-A roughly heart shaped pickup with excellent rear and side rejection.
b] Omnidirectional
-True “omni” pattern mics pick up all sound in a 360 degree field evenly.
-Omni pattern mics do not exhibit proximity effect.
c] Bi-Directional -OR- Figure-8 [same thing, different name]
-Bi-directional mics have a pickup that is shaped like the number 8, or the infinity sign. This pattern has null points at 90 and 270 degrees, almost exactly.
d] Other unidirectional patterns
-Hypercardioid
-Supercardioid
-Ultracardioid
-listed in order of least to most directional
e] Boundry Mics
-Boundary/PZM mics use a Hemispherical pattern.
-basically the response is a dome shape, with the plate on the bottom of the mic being the flat/floor, and the dome being oriented upwards. The size of the area of pickup can be altered by the shape and size of the floor or wall the mic is mounted on.
Other polar pattern information:
-Cardioid is the most common pattern.
-Some microphones will be switchable between polar patterns.
-Most Microphones come with specs that notate graphically the polar pattern, and show the frequency response characteristics along the 360 degree field boundry.
-the polar pattern of a mic can be temporarily altered by cupping the microphone around the head/capsule assembly. This is best exhibited by vocalists on stage cupping the head assembly of an sm58 or similar dynamic mic. This causes the mic to become near-omnidirectional in response, and generally causes the FOH engineer to lower the vocal to prevent a very very big problem: FEEDBACK.

Pads, Rolloffs, etc...
-Some mics have switches or rotating collars that notate certain things. Most commonly, high pass filters/lowcut filters, or attenuation pads.
-A HP/LC Filter does exactly what you might think: Removes low frequency content from the signal at a set frequency and slope.
Some microphones allow you to switch the rolloff frequency. Common rolloff frequencies are 75hz, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz, 125hz, and 250hz.

-A pad in this example is a switch that lowers the output of the microphone deirectly after the capsule to prevent overloading the input of a microphone preamplifier.
You might be asking: How is that possible?
to which i reply: Some microphones put out a VERY HIGH SIGNAL LEVEL, sometimes about line level(-10/+4dbu), mic level is generally accepted to start at -75dbu and continues increasing until it becomes line level in voltage. It should be noted that linel level signals are normally of a different impedance than mic level signals, which is determined by the gear.
an example for this would be: I mic the top of a snare drum with a large diaphragm condenser mic[solid state mic, not tube] that is capable of handling very high SPL[sound pressure level]. When the snare drum is played, the input of the micpre distorts, even with the gain turned all the way down. To combat this, i would use a pad with enough attenuation to defeat the distortion. In general, it is accepted to use a pad with only as much attentuation as you need, plus a small margin of error for extra “headroom”. What this means is that if you use a 20db pad where you only need a 10db pad, you will then have to add an additional 10db of gain to achieve a desireable signal level. This can cause problems, as not all pads sound good, or even transparent, and can color and affect your signal in sometimes unwanted ways that are best left unamplified.

Other mic info:
-when recording vocals, you should always use a popfilter.
-a pop filter mounted on a gooseneck is generally more effective than a windscreen made of foam that slips over the microphone.
the foam type often kill the highfrequency response, alter the polar pattern, and can introduce non-linear polarity problems(part of the frequency spectrum will be out of phase.)

Terms Related to mics, mic technique, and other important things you should know:

1] Plosives: “B”, “D”, “F”, “G”, “J”, “P”, “T” hard consonants and other vocal sounds that cause windblasts. These are responsible for a low frequency pop that can severly distort the diaphragm of the microphone, or cause a strange inconsistency of tonality by causing a short term proximity effect.

2] Proximity effect: An exponential increase in low frequency response causes by having a microphone excessivly close to a sound. The force of the air moving actually causes the microphone’s diaphragm to move and sometimes distort, usually on vocalists.
Microphones in a true OMNIDIRECTIONAL pattern do not exhibit proximity effect, and cardioid microphones exhibit the most pronounced proximity effect.
With some practice, you can use proximity effect to your advantage, or as an effect. For example, if you are recording someone whispering, and it sounds thin, weak, and irritating due to the intenese high mid and high frequency content, get the person very close to a cardioid microphone with two popfilters, back to back...approx 1/2”-1” away from the mic and set your gain carefully, and you can achieve a very intimite recording of whispering.
In a different scenario, you can place a mic inside of a kick drum between 1”-3” away from the inner shell, angled up and at the point of impact, and towards the floor tom. this captures[usually] a huge low end, and the sympathetic vibration of the floor tom on the kick drum hits, but retains a clarity of attack without: a] being distorted by the SPL of the drum, -and- b] capturing unplesant low-mid resonation of the kick drum head and shell that is common directly in the middle of the shell.

[Sumyoungguy]

-Home Recording for Musicians- I forgot the authers name but i read this book and its great...i highly recomend it. I do alot of recording and mastering, about one project a week, all live. I've taken a few classes with an owner and head engineer at a professional studio with his 30 years+ experience, and i'm fairly confedent in my knowledge... i don't have near the experience or knowledge as Butnutz but if you ever need any help, i can see what i can do if Butnutz is not around. I can also ask my amazing teacher. Oh ya, and i'm an experienced drummer who could help you in that aspect also... just send me a message... i'd be glad to help anyone (if i can) but you'd better ask Butnutz first.

[g@haar]

Very cool thread! Very helpfull, since we want to do some recording ourselves!

[Butnutz]

thanks for the kind words! audio engineering, music, and women are the only things that i ever really had a passion for, and so i make it my business to know as much as i can, and be as up to date as i can, while helping people understand as best as i can.

though, this thread makes me wish i could change my display name to "Mr. Nutz" without deleting my profile.

[unclesam]

Wow, ty! Do also have like some info on what to use on like on a bassdrum (EQ, effects, ..) and other parts of the drums?

When I record my bassdrum fe, I use 2 mics. One for the boom and one for the 'thick' sound. But I don't really know which kind of reverb to use (and EQing) to restrain the bleed from other instruments.

Maybe some tips?

[Butnutz]

Wow, ty! Do also have like some info on what to use on like on a bassdrum (EQ, effects, ..) and other parts of the drums?

When I record my bassdrum fe, I use 2 mics. One for the boom and one for the 'thick' sound. But I don't really know which kind of reverb to use (and EQing) to restrain the bleed from other instruments.

Maybe some tips?

i have a plan!

can you perhaps email me or post 10 scond clips from each kik mic? sometimes the less than obvious or very weird looking kick mic placement sounds alot better(thats defintly not a rule by any means, it truly depends on tuning, playing technique and the room) PM me for my email address if you can send me those clips.

when recording drums, there is little to be done to really get rid of bleed aside from microscopic editing or gating. gating tends to sound unnatural and weird if done incorrectly, and editing to that degree is intensly time consuming, and can sound every worse if done with even the smallest lapse in concentration.
the most popular technique is to make a compromise between where the mic sounds best in relation to the source, where the mic sounds best in relation to the bleed, and where the mic is in phase with the other mics.
basically, aim for 4 things when recording drums:
1] have the drums sounding good in the room
2] have the drums sounding good in the mics
3] dont clip anything, be conservative with your levels
4] make the bleed between microphones sound good before pressing record.

[unclesam]

Ok, i'll also try to make some pics of how the mic's are placed.

Ty for willing to help a 'new' commer to recording.

[p-mack]

this is honestly, the only thread here i have read from first to last page (maybe because it only has 3 pages).

but seriously, this is very, very, very informative and should be a sticky thread.
my only wish is that this thread would be the longest and that this thread won't die out on us....


thanks everyone.
especially buttnutz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Butnutz]

this is honestly, the only thread here i have read from first to last page (maybe because it only has 3 pages).

but seriously, this is very, very, very informative and should be a sticky thread.
my only wish is that this thread would be the longest and that this thread won't die out on us....


thanks everyone.
especially buttnutz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


hey P-Mack!

i am working on putting this thread into a PDF, so that i can incorporate additional diagrams. It will probably take me close to another 2 weeks before i am done with the first part (which includes this thread plus another 3 or 4 pages.) Once that is done, i will find somewhere to host the file.
Additionally, i may convert each individual page into a JPG or GIF, and have the text displayed as a 1024x768 jpg, so that it is both formatted and downloadable.
When that is all said and done, this thread will be deleted, and a moderator(hopefully) will Sticky the new thread with pictures and whatnot.


unclesam:
cool, ill take a look when you post the pics.
can you list the gear you use to record? really, the signal chain of your kick drum will do just fine.


TO EVERYONE:
i changed my account preferences so you are welcome to PM or Email me, and the forum should let you.
-Mr. Nutz

[ToddAR]

Mr. Nutz,

Thank you so much putting this together. You have obviously taken a great deal of time and care in preparing this, and those of us who are new to the "other side of the glass" highly appreciate you sharing your vast wealth of knowledge and practical real-world experience which will take years off our individual learning curve; and make our tentative first ventures in to recording, engineering, and producing much more effective, successful, and pleasant than they otherwise may have been.

THIS is what the PDF is all about.

Respectfully,
Todd Richardson

[TheAnt]

Excellent thread, Butnutz! This will definitely be a great help for me with my career choice!

[Butnutz]

so, i know i keep saying that im gonna add more information, and i am, but ive been a combination of busy and sick, which is good and bad. (money and suck)

[joshalberg]

This thread is officially my favorite thread on the entire forum. I have always been extremely interested in recording/production of music, and I have been taking over as the recording-manager for my band (we record in the guitarists mini-home-studio). I have developed somewhat of an ear for knowing what works in many cases and what doesn't, but reading this has helped me put concrete facts and terms behind things. I'll probably check out the books recommended in here as well.

[notsocoolguy]

I'm going to bump this back to the top :D

Great thread so far man! Keep it up!!!!

[drummerkid27]

Ur the man

[.:On The Rock:.]

Sweet stuff man!! I've been waiting for a thread like this (i've seem to have missed it too 'cause it's kind of old).

In a few months time im going to be saving up for some recording gear, and I think I have everything in mind that I need, but I would like someone who knows what they are doing to see what i am buying before I do just that. I will buy mics, an analog mixer and a USB or firewire interface first. So will the mics-->mixer-->interface-->computer work? I am looking at something like the Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX-PRO mixer (link:http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB2442FXPRO-Mixer?sku=631230) and the m-audio delta 1010 usb interface (link: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Delta-1010-PCI-Digital-Audio-System?sku=701340). Will this set up work? Should I get a USB or firewire interface? I've heard great things from firewire so it may be a worthy investment. Is there anything else I need? A pre-amp? I was also thing about an equilizer too. Is this a good investment??? I need a professional's advice.

I do the sound controls for some of my schools plays and i already know a bit about it. I can set up condenser mics on pipes and i know the jist of the mixer and equilizer stuff.

[Butnutz]

Sweet stuff man!! I've been waiting for a thread like this (i've seem to have missed it too 'cause it's kind of old).

In a few months time im going to be saving up for some recording gear, and I think I have everything in mind that I need, but I would like someone who knows what they are doing to see what i am buying before I do just that. I will buy mics, an analog mixer and a USB or firewire interface first. So will the mics-->mixer-->interface-->computer work? I am looking at something like the Behringer Eurorack UB2442FX-PRO mixer (link:http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB2442FXPRO-Mixer?sku=631230) and the m-audio delta 1010 usb interface (link: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/MAudio-Delta-1010-PCI-Digital-Audio-System?sku=701340). Will this set up work? Should I get a USB or firewire interface? I've heard great things from firewire so it may be a worthy investment. Is there anything else I need? A pre-amp? I was also thing about an equilizer too. Is this a good investment??? I need a professional's advice.

I do the sound controls for some of my schools plays and i already know a bit about it. I can set up condenser mics on pipes and i know the jist of the mixer and equilizer stuff.

forget the mixer, preamps, and equalizer. Invest in a good quality firewire or usb interface that has preamps. Use plugins for all your processing.
thank me later.

[.:On The Rock:.]

thanks, can you recomend a good quality interface?

[dudme]

Good thread.

[slipknot001]

i am in a little delema,

i am going to be applying to a resteraunt around here that hires 15 year-olds, cause no where elce around here does, and i have about 250 dollars right now for an interface, i was thinking the M-Audio FIREWIRE 410, or FIREWIRE SOLO, both look good, however, if they do accept me, and i'd have a flow of money, should i go for saving up for a while and get a firepod, or should i buy the firewire 410 now and then sell it when i have the money for the firepod, or should i just wait, i really want to get some recording soon but i suppose i could wait for a little while... but pleaseeee some advice im really not sure what to do!

[TuoKaerf]

Well how many simultanious inputs do you want? All of those are fairly good interfaces, it all depends how many pres and inputs they have on them. When pricing, remember that you still have to get mics, cables, and stands.

[slipknot001]

well i have a yamaha mg 4/10 mixer, which is pretty nice, and im getting the firewire 410, i think it has enough for me, all ill need is protools or cakewalk or sonar or somethin, right now i downloaded like, KRYSTAL or something, some crappy free program, lol, but im pretty excited, we're picking that, a snake, another XLR wire, and a firewire card for my laptop tomorrow, most likely, lets all hope for me :)

[drummerkid27]

Hey Butnutz, I thought of anyone I should ask you this.... Considering you are a pro engenier, I was wondering how much would a really good set of mics be (for drums) ??
And another thing... I knnow this is a stupid Q but im a noob with Recording, I was wondering when u put the mics on the drums what does the sounds go to?? A comp or what????? Thanx for any help!!!

[Butnutz]

Hey Butnutz, I thought of anyone I should ask you this.... Considering you are a pro engenier, I was wondering how much would a really good set of mics be (for drums) ??
And another thing... I knnow this is a stupid Q but im a noob with Recording, I was wondering when u put the mics on the drums what does the sounds go to?? A comp or what????? Thanx for any help!!!


the topic of microphones has been covered, and will continue to be covered in many other threads in this forum, so it would be far easier if you lookedthrough them at your own pace, and posted a new thread with anything you dont understand.


as covered in the first post of this thread, what you are describing is called the signal chain. mic->analog transmission->preamp->analog transmission->A/D Converter->digital transmission->Software. (or mic->interface->software, if you want to keep it simple.)

keep the questions coming, i am more than happy to answer whatever i can, and if something is unclear, i will gladly clarify or direct you to a resource that can explain it better than i can.

[drummerkid27]

Thanx alot man!!! Without ppl like u, this site would be nothing.....

So im wondering from ur experience, what do u think a moderate to pro recording sytem would be??? $$$$

[TuoKaerf]

Well, again it depends on what exactly you want to do. I would say to get everything (mics, cables, preamp/ interface, software) for a basic home recording rig can run from $500-$4,000+

[drummerkid27]

ok thanx alot tuokaerf. I would rather wait and spend $ 1000, then spening $ 500 and getting mad and end up getting the $ 1000 one. Therefore spending $1500 altogether when I could just buy the good one in the first place.

This is a stupid Q. In pro recording studios, how much is there equtment worth for drums?

[Butnutz]

ok thanx alot tuokaerf. I would rather wait and spend $ 1000, then spening $ 500 and getting mad and end up getting the $ 1000 one. Therefore spending $1500 altogether when I could just buy the good one in the first place.

This is a stupid Q. In pro recording studios, how much is there equtment worth for drums?

it depends on the studio, but a pro studio with a large analog console can have somewhere in the area of 1million dollars or more invested into the facility.

[drummerkid27]

wow! Well im going to do more recherch. Thanx again for the help!

[.:On The Rock:.]

Sorry to bug you again but can you recommend a quality interface that has lots of versatility like you said to me before? I'm doing loads of research but i havn't seen an interface like the one you mentioned.

[dubsnack]

^ I have had a great experience with the Digidesign Digi002R. It runs Pro Tools. It's about $1200.

[.:On The Rock:.]

thanks, ill check it out.

[.:On The Rock:.]

Thinking about it now, I will need a mixer for future live sound in some places. Also I'd rather externally adjust mics on a mixer than on a computer. Overall, a mixer will suit me better. And then i just need a more simple interface with many channels. Any thoughts?

[unclesam]

I'm going to buy this http://www.tascam.com/Products/fw1082.html

Do you guys see things that I'm should keep in mind? Or is this quite good?

[drummerkid27]

so what do i have to buy if i want to record my drumming with really good equtiment?
I know i have to buy mics but what else do i have to buy to put the music on disk with editing so my drums sound perfect?
PLZ LIST THEM THANKS

[dubsnack]

Thinking about it now, I will need a mixer for future live sound in some places. Also I'd rather externally adjust mics on a mixer than on a computer. Overall, a mixer will suit me better. And then i just need a more simple interface with many channels. Any thoughts?

generally, if you're talking about the same price range, the preamps on the live sound mixer will be far inferior to those on an interface like the Digi002 or Firepod. So you would sacrafice sound quality in your recordings for dual-use.

[Butnutz]

Thinking about it now, I will need a mixer for future live sound in some places. Also I'd rather externally adjust mics on a mixer than on a computer. Overall, a mixer will suit me better. And then i just need a more simple interface with many channels. Any thoughts?

then i would highly recommend the Mackie ONYX series mixers, with the add-on firewire card.

[drummerkid27]

So when u record ur drums, How or what makes the drums sound so awsome (or different?)

[TuoKaerf]

A mix of things. Do a search on drum recording, this has been beat to death.

[.:On The Rock:.]

then i would highly recommend the Mackie ONYX series mixers, with the add-on firewire card.
They are definetely nice.... definetely... quality too, and with the firewire card, i don't need the seperate interface. Musicans Friend has a deal with this mixer(the one i want) and you get the card for free...
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-Onyx-1640-16Channel-Mixer?sku=634268
It is a smoking deal, but i would only be buying it in the summer, and i doubt that they would have the same deal on it by then... But you never know...

[.:On The Rock:.]

no more deal:(

[.:On The Rock:.]

I just read some reviews on the mixer and firewire card and a couple of people have been complaining about... welll...

"Love Mackie, love the board. Wow, is this digital card a surprise. After you've recorded something, and you play it back from your software, the only knob on the board that you can effect is the monitor volume!! In other words, it won't come back through the board. Big deal you say? How about if you want to use some outboard gear after you've recorded? I have some customers who request cassettes for on-hold message machines and I can't just record a cassette. I have to burn a CD, then play it on a CD player through the board and send it to the cassette recorder just to make a cassette. Granted, thats not what it was designed for, but it certainly is a short coming that you can't CHOOSE to play back through the board. The board itself, is awesome. I love it. But overall, Mackie dropped the ball on the digital card by not allowing the OPTION of coming back through the board."

"This is an amazing board. Amazingly Stupid! Highly advertised "Perkins E.O.'S" , (and all the knobs) become useless when using the firewire card. I talked to Mackie and they tell me the mixer can be used for a live mixing board. This thing wouldn't last 30 days on the road. The product info doesn't tell you this. So, if you want to spend $1279.00 for the pre-amps go ahead. I would return it, but I have installed the firewire card. Mackie should be ashamed!!!"

Dunno, is it worth blowing $1300USD on this then?

[notsocoolguy]

^^ Wow, I only just relised that also... It kind of defeats the purpose of the mixer then. You may as well, as everyone else on the forum says, buy a firepod!!

[.:On The Rock:.]

I'm trying to look for a good firepod now, 10 channels or more with phantom power on 2 channels. I've only seen one that i remotely though about, it was 10 channels, but the phantom power was in groups of 4... so no go. Anyone can help?

[.:On The Rock:.]

Wait, if i have the phantom power set on the mixer, will it matter if it is on the interface or not?
n00b here :o

[ZMD]

I'm trying to look for a good firepod now, 10 channels or more with phantom power on 2 channels. I've only seen one that i remotely though about, it was 10 channels, but the phantom power was in groups of 4... so no go. Anyone can help?

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/8pre/

[Butnutz]

I just read some reviews on the mixer and firewire card and a couple of people have been complaining about... welll...

"Love Mackie, love the board. Wow, is this digital card a surprise. After you've recorded something, and you play it back from your software, the only knob on the board that you can effect is the monitor volume!! In other words, it won't come back through the board. Big deal you say? How about if you want to use some outboard gear after you've recorded? I have some customers who request cassettes for on-hold message machines and I can't just record a cassette. I have to burn a CD, then play it on a CD player through the board and send it to the cassette recorder just to make a cassette. Granted, thats not what it was designed for, but it certainly is a short coming that you can't CHOOSE to play back through the board. The board itself, is awesome. I love it. But overall, Mackie dropped the ball on the digital card by not allowing the OPTION of coming back through the board."

"This is an amazing board. Amazingly Stupid! Highly advertised "Perkins E.O.'S" , (and all the knobs) become useless when using the firewire card. I talked to Mackie and they tell me the mixer can be used for a live mixing board. This thing wouldn't last 30 days on the road. The product info doesn't tell you this. So, if you want to spend $1279.00 for the pre-amps go ahead. I would return it, but I have installed the firewire card. Mackie should be ashamed!!!"

Dunno, is it worth blowing $1300USD on this then?



the firewire outputs are taken directly after the Preamp, but can be modified to come post EQ, or post Fader.
If left unmodified, NOTHING becomes USELESS, but the EQ'd signal will not be sent to the firewire buss. To make it more clear, here is the following bad signal flow diagram:

mic->preamp->||firewire output||->EQ->Auxes->Pan->||prefader solo||->fader->||postfader solo||->Mute->bussing.

so, when using the firewire card, everything is still functional, except the EQ and postfader level dont get sent to "tape". trust me, its better that way(well, post-eq would be a nice option to have.)
as for only returning a stereo mix to the board....it is because the card is designed to let you edit and mix in software...sure it sucks to not have real faders...but its still cheaper than buying a mixer AND interface....and the ONYX preamps are quite good.



just for the record, i am not affliated with mackie, i just happen to think the ONYX line of preamps and mixers are the best products they have ever made.
To the contrary, i will hate the DXB, 4buss SR consoles, and 8buss recording consoles until i die. oh, and 824s.

[TuoKaerf]

The 8buss consoles suck. They come at a good price, but I hate the sound of the preamps (well, actually I hate the sound of the entire board).

[notsocoolguy]

^^ Yeah I see the point in that sence... And the pre's on the desk are rather nice.

[dudme]

Wait, if i have the phantom power set on the mixer, will it matter if it is on the interface or not?
n00b here :o
Phantom power is used to power Condenser microphones. If you have phantom power on your mixer, and your mics plug directly into that, then you're fine.

[Butnutz]

The 8buss consoles suck. They come at a good price, but I hate the sound of the preamps (well, actually I hate the sound of the entire board).


wait until you try a DXB.

...at least the A8B wont crash 00**

[ZMD]

Would it matter if phantom power goes to dynamic mics?

The Firepod only does phantom power in groups of four.

[dudme]

Would it matter if phantom power goes to dynamic mics?

The Firepod only does phantom power in groups of four.
No, it won't hurt dynamic mics to have phantom power run to them.

[TuoKaerf]

Just make sure to turn on the phantom power AFTER you plug in the mic in.


Butnutz, I have yet to come across one. I'll keep that in mind lol.

[.:On The Rock:.]

the firewire outputs are taken directly after the Preamp, but can be modified to come post EQ, or post Fader.
If left unmodified, NOTHING becomes USELESS, but the EQ'd signal will not be sent to the firewire buss. To make it more clear, here is the following bad signal flow diagram:

mic->preamp->||firewire output||->EQ->Auxes->Pan->||prefader solo||->fader->||postfader solo||->Mute->bussing.

so, when using the firewire card, everything is still functional, except the EQ and postfader level dont get sent to "tape". trust me, its better that way(well, post-eq would be a nice option to have.)
as for only returning a stereo mix to the board....it is because the card is designed to let you edit and mix in software...sure it sucks to not have real faders...but its still cheaper than buying a mixer AND interface....and the ONYX preamps are quite good.
So your saying i can have the outputs post-fader, right?

and you said that it doesn't have real faders, i thought it did?

[notsocoolguy]

So your saying i can have the outputs post-fader, right?

and you said that it doesn't have real faders, i thought it did?

He means that you don't have actual real faders when your mixing... I.e the desk dosn't become a control surface after you have recorded...

[.:On The Rock:.]

He means that you don't have actual real faders when your mixing... I.e the desk dosn't become a control surface after you have recorded...
alright then, thanks.

[Butnutz]

Hey guys, i know its been a long time since this was updated, but stay tuned for installment number THREE, entitled: "Studio Etiquette and common Sense." Another topic that will be covered is "Why dont my recordings sound professional/Why should i learn proper technique if ill figure it out as i go along"

it should be up by tuesday.

[SweetDrums1234]

butnutz, could you seriously include some diagrams and/or pictures?

[Butnutz]

butnutz, could you seriously include some diagrams and/or pictures?


if i could find a way to format it, yes. im not so good at the whole "make a professional looking pdf" thing. in fact my .pdf formatting experiments have lead me to conclude that i just plain suck at making pictures and layouts.


edit: If you could tell me what you would like diagrams of, i could link you to some that i believe to be excellent.

[SweetDrums1234]

hmmm, how about everything? :D

[Butnutz]

i was dreading that answer. lol

[Die_ButterFly]

Daaaaaamn. There is a god. Rep.

And STICKY THIS THREAD!!!

[Butnutz]

SweetDrums1234 Ive been contemplating your request for diagrams, and i cant really come up with a legal solution. I was going to scan some diagrams from some textbooks i have, but its illegal. I'd rather not get sued for that. I am going to continue to search for some more diagrams online, and ill post them here as pictures with the best explanations i can find or type.

Die_Butterfly
I am glad you found this thread to be useful. Anything you think i left out or needs clarification?
I think the plan is when i write some more for this thread, i am going to start a new one with all the information in 1 post with diagrams and a mod will sticky that.

cheers!

[Butnutz]

Hey guys, i know its been a long time since this was updated, but stay tuned for installment number THREE, entitled: "Studio Etiquette and common Sense." Another topic that will be covered is "Why dont my recordings sound professional/Why should i learn proper technique if ill figure it out as i go along"

it should be up by tuesday.


oops, i didnt mean today, i really meant to do this last week. Oh well, i got sidetracked by some other stuff in life.
I'll get on it ASAP, but no promises about when exactly this whole thing will be done.

[Sreddington210]

hey butnutz one question, im looking into the onyx series for live and studio application. i've heard the pre amps are great but the program tracktion isn't that great would reccomend another program to use with the onyx mixer

thanks
sean

[Butnutz]

hey butnutz one question, im looking into the onyx series for live and studio application. i've heard the pre amps are great but the program tracktion isn't that great would reccomend another program to use with the onyx mixer

thanks
sean



Tracktion 3 was just released, and each version brings it closer and closer to being a "Pro" Program. However, if you arent satisfied with it, any DAW software that allows inputs via firewire will work. Im sure it would work with cubase, sonar, acid pro, garageband, and probably even audacity and reaper.

ill check it out for you, but if i dont get back to you fast enough, check out the mackie forums. their website isnt working right now, but im sure it will be up later today.

[ZMD]

Have you compared the Beta 57A to the SM57?

Shure lists the Beta 57A as an "improved" version of the SM57, so I was just curious.

[Butnutz]

Have you compared the Beta 57A to the SM57?

Shure lists the Beta 57A as an "improved" version of the SM57, so I was just curious.


I havent compared them side by side. I remember the original version of the Beta57 (the non-A model) sounding better than the current model. You can easily tell them apart by the early model's strange grille design which looks vaguely like a chrome SM57 on steroids.

[drummerkid27]

is DW the best drum to record with?

[.:On The Rock:.]

is DW the best drum to record with?
I'm so appalled that I can't think up an answer for that...

[TuoKaerf]

is DW the best drum to record with?

Good sounding drums are good sounding drums.

Ludwig, Gretsch, or Yamaha usually tend to be the most common sets that studios own.

However, any kit that sounds good will do perfectly fine.

[SweetDrums1234]

is DW the best drum to record with?
congratulations. you have just reached a new level of stupidity.

[SweetDrums1234]

I'm so appalled that I can't think up an answer for that...
he needs to go whore youtube with questions like that.

[Kadnar24]

Thank you so much Butnutz for doing this. It is a great resource, and I am looking forward to read what else you have to offer. Thank you again.

-Michael

[fakiekid]

good old nyquist theorem ay! not seen that in some time!

[The Dorian]

I see: dsf9hw43589hwre89hf8gudfsg75gfd645ds5631r5564sd984 f15s6df.

[Bierce85]

NEVER EVER USE PHANTOM POWER WITH A RIBBON MICROPHONE, IT WILL DIE. Sometimes it might even smoke or shoot out a few sparks.
applying phantom power to a Ribbon Microphone will literally cause the ribbon, which is normally made from Aluminum, to MELT.
Also, windblasts and plosives can rip the ribbon, so these microphones are not suitible for things like horns, woodwinds, vocals, kick drums, or anything that "pushes air."

Not true and a very common myth. Check the link...

http://www.shinybox.com/RibbonPhantom.php

Also, modern ribbons like Royers and AEAs are built to withstand high SPL sound sources. You're right that they shouldn't be placed close in front of any kind of wind producing source, but I think you're giving the wrong impression as to what a ribbon mic can be used for. As long as you have some sort of windscreen to protect them they are a great option for all of those things you mentioned (can you tell I love ribbons?)

[redheaddrummer03]

Rep!!

[shanners]

hey guys,
i've been studying Audio since September, i study in Dublin.

hopefully Butnutz wont mind me putting stuff up in this thread, i make more sense perhaps than making another thread dedicated to the same topic, and i would greatly appreciate his and everyones input for learning more about the fascinating subject.

so as a result of impending exams I've begun to type out my notes, so i thought i'd share some of the stuff I've been going over i'll be updating over the next few weeks and i'll put up sections of projects i've completed over the past few months on EQ, compression, microphones and cables. hopefully i can add to someones knowledge during this exercise,

again if anyone has a problem with me adding to this thread please let me know and i'll make a new one, also please inform me of any errors in the information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Principles of Sound

Sound is acoustic variations in air pressure. A sound causes a change in the air pressure.

Propagation
Sound created form a source
sound Propagates in an omnidirectional pattern (think of dropping a stone in a pond, ripples spread out in all directions
Air has elastic properties and as a result sound will dissipate as it travels

Air particles have a state of inertia, if we imagine an empty room, it is in a state of inertia, no sound or movement is occurring, one we add a sound the particles will move. Because of the elastic properties of air pressure, once the particles have been moved they will try to get back to the original state of inertia.

Imagine a sponge, squeeze it up an then let it go, it will return to its original state, the state of inertia.

Therefore, Acoustic variations in air pressure are air particles being moved. This leads on to how we hear these variations.

Hearing System

the human hearing system is limited to a range of 20Hz to 20000Hz (or 20kHz)
1 hertz is one cycle of a sine wave per second.

The Sine Wave
the sine wave is the purest and simplest sound known to man.

It comes form the mathematical function Sin (X)
X = 2pi
2pi = 360 degrees
see the unit circle and Sine wave

When a sound causes air pressure to push away it is known as compression
when a sound returns to its original position it is known as rarefaction

Velocity

Velocity: In physics, velocity is defined as the rate of change of position. In midi velocity can be any value up to 127, (as with all midi values)

Wavelength

This is the physical length of a wave

Envelope

the envelope of a sound is its amplitude over time. It is split into 4 parameters (ADSR)

Attack – The time it takes for a sound to reach its maximum level
Decay – The time it takes to reach the sustain level
Sustain – The length of time the sound is held, think of an open E on a guitar, played once but let ring out. This is how long the sound stays at a certain level.
Release – Amount of time before the sustain stops.


Timbre

timbre is a combination of harmonics, partials and resonance
Any material can be destroyed by resonance. The body of any instrument will have an amount of varying resonance and resistance. The resonant frequency of most instruments are part of the ausio spectrum.

Pitch

Pitch is subjective. It is our interpretation of frequency which is absolute.

Frequency

frequency is the amount of cycles per second generated by a sound (number of CPS of a sine wave) it is measured in Hertz. It is determined by the number of sine wave cycles that are completed in a second within a range of 0 – 360 degrees.
see the unit circle.

Harmonics
Harmonics are overtones, above the fundamental frequency that have an integer multiple relationship.
“a sinusoidal component of a periodic wave or quantity having a frequency that is an integral multiple of the fundamental frequency”, essential to music, also known as overtones, harmonics are what make guitars sound like guitars, trumpets sound like trumpets. http://www.dranetz-bmi.com/pdf/harmonicsall.pdf


Partials
Non integer related frequencies (in most cases these are non musical)

Phase
The cancellation that occurs when 2 or more sine waves are summed together, where one starting point is different from the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Interference_of_two_waves.png

Waveform
The shape of the wave in the time domain = Amplitude over time

White Noise
White noise is equal amplitude at all frequencies

Pink Nosie
Pink Noise is equal energy at all frequencies

Buffer

Buffer: a way of getting things ready to get information to start and work efficiently.
Typical hardware buffer is1024 samples (128,256,512 are others.)

the advantage of using 1024 is that it is less CPU intensive. The smaller the amount of samples that we are dealing with the more CPU power is taken from other OS issues.

The disadvantage of this is that the program has to wait or buffer the information so if the buffer is 1024 it has to read 1024 samples before playing it. This creates a delay. As a result 1024 sample buffer is almost unworkable in live situations.

It is recommended that 256 sample buffer is used for recording many tracks, 128 for 1 or 2 tracks.

There is a direct relationship between buffer size and latency. So if only recording one or two tracks the advantage of using 128 is that there is less latency.

Sample Rate and Bit Rate
0db full scale – This is the maximum level you can have in digital audio.

Sample Rate – The amount of samples played per second, usually 44100khz

Bit Rate – Accuracy at which the sample is taken, usually 16-bit for CD quality.
A sample is the smallest piece of a recorded audio signal. It is a sample of ampletude.

Bit – A bit is the smallest piece of digital data, it is a binary principle, 1 or 0 (off or on)
CD has 16 bit, DVD is 24 bit.
For Every sample (44100 samples per second) 16 bits of data per second are stored.

Tip
Record on a higher bit depth and then bounce down to 16 bit for high quality CD Audio.

How to work out the amount of memory needed to save audio

1 bit
1 byte = 8 bits
1 Kilobyte = 1024 Bytes
1 Megabyte = 1024 Kilobytes
1 Gigabyte = 1024 Megabytes

10 tracks at 44100, recorded at 24 bit and 96khz at 4 mins. (one song – 10 instrument tracks)

24*96000 = 2,304,000b = bits per sec
8 / 2,304,000b = 288,000B = Bytes per sec
1024 / 288,000B = 281.25Kb = Kilobytes per sec
1024 / 281.25 Kb = 0.2746MB = Megabytes per sec
10 tracks * 0.2746MB= 2.746mb per sec for all 10 tracks
2.746 * 1 min (60 sec)= 164.7Mb for one minute for all 10 tracks
164.7 * 4mins= 659Mb of memory needed for 10 tracks

hopefully this information will be useful and if there are no objections i'd love to add to this, thanks for reading,

Shanners

[i love rock music]

damn useful, cos i'm a noob at all this recording stuff

[sparkie]

this is a great thread, but i have a question.

what is the easiest way to record music/drums? can you run mics stright into a computer with a music processing program?

[shanners]

this is a great thread, but i have a question.

what is the easiest way to record music/drums? can you run mics stright into a computer with a music processing program?

you would need an interface something along the lines of a firewire or usb interface with inputs for mics.

[Butnutz]

Not true and a very common myth. Check the link...

http://www.shinybox.com/RibbonPhantom.php

Also, modern ribbons like Royers and AEAs are built to withstand high SPL sound sources. You're right that they shouldn't be placed close in front of any kind of wind producing source, but I think you're giving the wrong impression as to what a ribbon mic can be used for. As long as you have some sort of windscreen to protect them they are a great option for all of those things you mentioned (can you tell I love ribbons?)


huh, lol. wow i must admit i copied and pasted some of my class notes from way back when i went to school for this and didnt proofread all of them.

consider the quoted post to be an edit to the section on ribbon mics.

[4eyeddrummah]

Wow this thread is extremely helpful, thanks Butnutz and all who have contributed. I'll be coming back at some point to check out more. I'm thinking of doing some recording in the future once i can afford it. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I'd need to put together a small home recording setup, but I'll ask more questions about it at a later time.

[Spncnrt]

What exactly do i need in the line of microphones, and what recording interface is going to be most economical as far as the average drummer, how much exactly am i going to need to suck up and spend for the ideal recording setup, something that you would be proud to show someone as far as sound quality, sorry know i'm throwing a lot of questions out, but i'm taking a few steps in the right direction and have a yahmaha audio workstation that may be able to do the job...not sure, and advice would be greatly appreciated