Recording Experts, come here please.

[dubsnack]

Yo, I'm using sennheiser e604's to mic my 14x12 and 16x14 hanging floor toms and I'm having a little trouble.

I'm getting great attack sounds, but long after I hit the drum the mics are picking up vibrations from the shell.

It's creating a dull hum in the background.

It's making punch-ins sound a bit bizzare as the shells are not ringing when I punch in.

So far I've played with every imaginable mic placement this mount can offer, the pad setting on my pre, inserting silence between hits and fading in and out (major pain in the butt). I'm still not getting it to go away.

I think I may need to keep working with gating settings, but I haven't thus far been able to get a clean attack doing it this way.

Hopefully this makes sense, I could really use some guidence by people more experienced than me. ALL suggestions are appreciated.

[styleone]

If that's a "hum", that'd be not far from 100 hz, maybe try to trick it with the eQ.

I've used these mics only once and funny enough, I had the same trouble with my floor tom ! The only way we managed to take it out was using some gaffa tape. It's not pleasant to watch but if that solves the problem, that's what matters !


This could help unless you meant that the mic was picking up the vibrations from other shells and there, you can only trick it with the gate !

[dubsnack]

Thanks dude, I'll try applying a low cut and see how that helps. I'm a bit worried that it'll hurt the overall tone of the drum but there's only one way to find out. :D

Any other ideas?

[hxcobd]

Two best suggestions have already been given: muffle the head in some way, or apply an EQ cut.

I'd opt for muffling rather than EQ myself.

[dubsnack]

I dunno... I think there's gotta be a good way to do it without sacrificing the drum's tone.

I don't want the drum to be dead when I hit it, like muffling it would do. I just want it to be dead when I'm not hitting it.

This why I think gating is probably the best solution but I am interested in hearing ALL solutions from people who have actually experienced a similar problem.

[gunar]

Re-tune your drums. Try and get both heads as close to the same pitch as possible. This will kill a lot of sympathetic reverbaration. I would also use a SLIGHT expander and not a gate. (if needed)

And if this isn't for live playing, take the mic's off the rims. Put them about 4 inches over the drums on their own stands. You never want to clip mic's on drums in a studio inviroment, you don't want the diaphram of the mic moving at all, unless it's picking up the sound of the drums.

[Demfer]

Dude i wish i can give you substantial info but for me its a lot of experimenting. When i recorded my exports i tightened everything up more than im used too, it was the only way to get rid of unwanted after verbs. Moving the mic around and trying to pic up sound from diff spots is also somthing you need to fool around with.

[styleone]

Re-tune your drums. Try and get both heads as close to the same pitch as possible. This will kill a lot of sympathetic reverbaration. (if needed)

Actually, I'd not do that. Tuning to perfection, that is to say with the exact same pitch on both heads will give the more resonance. Of course, this resonance may sound very nice but I doubt the "hum" thing would get any better.

I'd personally try to tune the reso head higher at a pitch pleasant to hear with the combination of the batter. This tends to stop the medium-low resonance and seems to increase attack. This is quite risky but why not try it.


And if this isn't for live playing, take the mic's off the rims. Put them about 4 inches over the drums on their own stands. You never want to clip mic's on drums in a studio inviroment, you don't want the diaphram of the mic moving at all, unless it's picking up the sound of the drums.

I couldn't agree more, I also like to trick FIRST with mic placement, as Gunar said, do not fear placing the mic a bit further away from the head.

[WasteAwayToday]

i'd say use a compressor with a gate on all the tom channels and experiment with it.

[dudme]

Hmmmm. are you using any sort of compressor or noise gate between the mics and the recording device? I think a noise gate with a soft knee setting (http://www.alesis.com/support/notes/Signal_Processing/Compterm.html) might eliminate the mic picking up the vibrations of the shell.

This will probably be info that you already know, but for the benefit of others wondering:
A noise gate basically sets a threshold for the signal strength. If the signal strength drops below the threshold, it turns the "mic" off, thus limiting the amount of input from it. How that correlates to mics is below a certain set sound pressure level (SPL), it cuts the signal off to the recorder. This keeps the mic from relaying all the sounds in the room through the mic to the recorder.
Knee (http://www.alesis.com/support/notes/Signal_Processing/Compterm.html) refers to the type of setting that determines how fast the cutoff is. It can be immediate (Hard Knee - think turning off a solid state amp: immediate off), or gradual (Soft Knee - like turning off a tube amp: it fades out.) Soft knee is best for recording, since it eliminates the harsh cutoffs that Hard Knees produce.
The knee limit is adjustable, so you can taylor it to your needs.

http://www.alesis.com/support/notes/Signal_Processing/Image4.gif
Hard Knee Soft Knee

[Servant07]

I know you said you tried different mic placements, but have you removed the mic clamp from the drum completely?

Rig up your own stand to completely isolate the mic from the drum.

[CoolDude74]

If the drum is humming, you can't blame the mic for picking it up. Play with tuning and/or muffling. I like those clear plastic rings that sit on top of the head.

I usually apply gate to all my drum tracks except for overheads. Works well if you have a lookahead setting and really tweak all the parameters. Remember, there is no default setting for a gate that will work well on any drum, any song. You need to customize the settings for each drum, each song, each session.

I've also resorted to applying mix automation to the tracks (fading in/out).

I don't like the advice to use EQ to remove the hum because then you are getting rid of the fundamental tone of the tom. I like bassy/thick tom sounds.

[dr_winston]

And if this isn't for live playing, take the mic's off the rims. Put them about 4 inches over the drums on their own stands. You never want to clip mic's on drums in a studio inviroment, you don't want the diaphram of the mic moving at all, unless it's picking up the sound of the drums.

:)

[jacobthetongue]

I definitely agree that if you are clamping the mic to the rim, that is probably the brunt of your problem. Clamping to the rim is great for live, to save space on the floor, but in the studio, I never have ANYTHING clamped to the kit. There will always be some residual resonance that way. Also, if you have the opportunity to mount the drums separately from the kick and each other (if they aren't already) that may help too. But first things first, get the clamps OFF of the toms.

[dubsnack]

Thanks for all of the replies.

My instinct is telling me that simply taking the mic off the rim mount won't fix the problem, although I will try it for sure.

Here is why I think this: it would seem that the only potential problem related to mounting it on the rim would be the vibration caused in the mic's diaphragm, right? So then why would you think I am having the problem on my floor toms but not my rack tom. My rack tom moves much MORE than my floors do, because it is on an ISS clamp and my floors are on optimounts... wouldn't that make the diaphragm vibrate more on the rack, and if so, why is it not humming then?

What is different about micing in the studio as opposed to live? Both are using reletively the same amount of gain in a preamp, only one's being further amplified in the live setting.. I don't understand how that is different.

The hum is loud enough in the "pre" stage that it would be just as horrendous if amplified. AND the hum is definitely the pitch of each drum, rather than "rumble" noise...

Tell me why I'm wrong...

No sarcasm, I really want to understand this. Thanks!!

[dudme]

.............I think I may need to keep working with gating settings, but I haven't thus far been able to get a clean attack doing it this way....
Man, sorry dub, I totally missed that from your initial post. You can disregard my previous post. :D

[dubsnack]

lol, it's all good man I appreciate you taking the time to respond in the first place!!!

[dudme]

:D

The big difference I can see from a live vs. studio setting is that live you have a lot of surround noise trying to go through your mics, so you have to set the mic level lower than you would need to in the studio, so it only picks up the loudest sounds (the drum that is right next to the mic).
The surrounding sounds would also help mask the hum, so to speak. A guitar or a vocal or a bass would be faintly coming though your drum mics and that would help cover up the hum. Plus, it would allow the mic to pick up the louder (guitar) sound over the hum. When you are trying to mix the surrounding sounds out of your drum mics you'd inevitably set the threshold above the hum.

[Demfer]

1) OVERHEADS:

The typical drum set usually is not physically setup in a standard config. The snare drum is to the right. The toms generally go from center to right. Because of this, the overhead microphones are not going to pickup the pan image that we want to achieve. The snare drum will be in the right, and the toms will go from center to right. In order to pickup what we want to achieve we have to think of a center line traveling through the drum set and set up our microphones accordingly. Set them up about 12" above the highest cymbal.

2) SNARE:

it needs to be in a position that isolates it from picking up other drums and cymbals. It is generally best to mic the snare drum from the top if you are using only one microphone. However, many engineers use two microphones, one on the top and one on the bottom. The normal position for the top microphone is to the drummers left at about 10 o'clock. it is pointing away from all of the other drums on your drum set and will have less leakage. It is also out of the way of the normal playing area of the drum as well as out of the way of the normal side stick, or rim shot position. The mic should be aimed at the normal impact area of the snare, that being the center in most cases.

3) Kick :

The microphone should be pointing to where the beater hits the head of the drum so that it picks up the full attack of the beater striking the drumhead. Being inside the drum, it will also pick up the bass tone created inside the drum. It is also usually best not to place the microphone in the very center of the drum. You will get a much richer tone by placing the microphone off center, usually half way between the center and the edge of the drum. This is because of the pattern of sound waves inside the circular shell of the drum. Creates less unwanted sound, and leave smooth low end thump.

4) Toms:

There are 3 things to take into consideration when miking the toms. Again, as with the snare drum, the mics should be placed in a position so that they are unlikely to get hit by a stray drumstick. Secondly, as with the snare drum, they should be angled to point toward the center of the drum. The final factor to take into consideration is the distance from the playing surface. When using microphones on instruments with lower frequencies, there is a law called the "proximity effect". Basically, this law states that the closer the microphone is to the sound source, the more the bass frequencies will be accentuated. This can be a good thing or a bad thing. Often, a boost in the lower frequencies can add to the fullness of the tone you achieve. Experiment with microphone proximity to the drum to see how it affects the sound you achieve.

Tom are generally miced from the top, however, if the drum set has single headed toms, you may be successful by placing the microphone inside the tom. This placement also has the advantage of better isolation from the rest of the drum set. Tune the heads with equal tension all around. If the drum rings too much (unlikely), use some tape (tape some tissue to the drum) or other dampening materials.

As Ive said its just a lot of tinkering and ghetto rigging. Play around with it, see if you can find the source.

[dubsnack]

lol, thanks for all that but I'm only having problems with my floor toms and I have isolated it to that.

I would also say that overhead info only applies to small diaphragm condensers, because if you're using large ones (like I am), they work best about 2-3' back. The overheads will be the primary sound source, and the individual mics will be more in the background...

[Demfer]

lol, thanks for all that but I'm only having problems with my floor toms and I have isolated it to that.

I would also say that overhead info only applies to small diaphragm condensers, because if you're using large ones (like I am), they work best about 2-3' back. The overheads will be the primary sound source, and the individual mics will be more in the background...

Worth a shot just to make sure your bases are covered. With my floortoms i just tighten them to get rid of excess head pitch vibs. Works for me.

[CoolDude74]

My instinct is telling me that simply taking the mic off the rim mount won't fix the problem, although I will try it for sure.

I bet your instinct is correct in this case, BUT, you might be getting some rumble through the physical connection. It all depends on how much of the rumble is caused by the head sympathetically vibrating vs. the rim/wood sympathetically vibrating. That ratio would be different in every situation so it would be best for you to separate the 2. You'd be suprised how much weird rumbly noise can be transmitted through a mic clip.

[gunar]

Tuning heads to the same pitch will kill sympathetic vibration. It's the way sound wavs phaze eachother out. They have to be pretty damn close to exact though.

The thing you have to worry about with overheads is phasing (again). Change the height to mess with it... But a good rule to stick to is keep the mics the same height, and rather close to eachother. Phasing is fun, you can kill unwanted tones using different overhead placement. And it all depends on the room too.

Message me on AIM if you would like to chat, I am studying in a sound engineering school in KC right now

[Servant07]

Thanks for all of the replies.

My instinct is telling me that simply taking the mic off the rim mount won't fix the problem, although I will try it for sure.

Here is why I think this: it would seem that the only potential problem related to mounting it on the rim would be the vibration caused in the mic's diaphragm, right? So then why would you think I am having the problem on my floor toms but not my rack tom. My rack tom moves much MORE than my floors do, because it is on an ISS clamp and my floors are on optimounts... wouldn't that make the diaphragm vibrate more on the rack, and if so, why is it not humming then?


It's not just the fact that a drum is vibrating, its the frequency of the vibration. Objects vibrate at different frequencies. For example, the ceiling tiles in my computer room vibrate loudly when ever I play a G note on my bass. Lifting my amp off the ground fixes this noise. All the notes on the bass make the room vibrate, but only a G makes noise. So the frequency your rack toms are vibrating at may not be in the range to create the mic noise.

[twindrum]

I don't want the drum to be dead when I hit it, like muffling it would do

Dead to you but not the mic. The way your ear percieves sound and the way a mic pics up sound are completely different. Stop being so stubborn and try it. Doesn't mean your a bad drummer, doesn't mean you can't tune, and doesn't mean your drum will sound like cardboard on your recording. I would try an aquarian studio ring on the batter with a half slice of moongel on the reso close to the rim. It may not be the naturaul resonant sound your used to live, but I bet it is on your recording.

[dubsnack]

I have a long weekend of experimenting ahead of me... I will give this all a go and report back results, and hopefully have patience to mix down some clips to post also.

Thanks for all the advice, it's a big deal for me to go into a situation with lots of ideas to try, whether they all work or not and I appreciate the very helpfull responses here!

[veggyboy]

I'd have to agree w/post #25, judging by what you described in post #15.

To me, the "rumble" you describe from your floor toms is simply being caused by the rest of your kit - you said you can tell the noise is actually the pitches of your toms and not simply something that's rattling or white noise.

Can you hear it in real time (not using mics or headphones) while you're playing? If so, this is the case then. Is the rumble always the same, or does it increase/decrease as you play around the kit? It could be another drum or something setting your floor tom off. Did this just start happening, or have you always noticed this?

If this just started happening, I would retune your drums. If you've noticed this before, I would try a little muffling to where the rumble isn't as noticeable.

[weps]

Several have said it. GET THE MICS OFF THE DRUMS!!!
Put them on their own stands. Go to a recording studio and you will NOT see any quickie rim clamps. Those are for live and amature recording use only.

If the drum itself generates that humming audibly, get some moon-gel. I am an avid proponent of the lay on rings, Evan E-rings specifically over the others for a few reasons, BUT they can cause some subtle rattling noise that can be picked up in a recording environment.

weps

[TuoKaerf]

The only reason I will ever turn to mic clips are to use extra mics that I can't fit in with stands. 75% of the time I have problems with them.

Take the mics off of the stands, and work with the tuning of the drum.

I would highly suggest NOT to touch the EQ or gates. Sure you will EQ some maybe later when you get the rest of the instruments in, but for now try and get the best sound possible out of the drums.

As for gating, why bother? Unless you have something that's unbearable, or you want to make an effect out of them, they are totally uneeded. You will end up making it sound worse if you're trying to get rid of a hum with a gate.

[dudme]

New Forum Section! New Forum Section! (http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=40)
Hook just made a new forum section for recording! Way Cool.

[dubsnack]

Awesome, I will be back at this problem this weekend. My show last friday, or rather the booze at the show, took too much out of me to record last weekend. Hopefully I'll make the time to post a full description of the rig I'm using in the new fancy section.

[mzd]

this thread should get moved over to the new forum. there is some great advice in here for people new to recording. i wish it was around a month ago when i was recording!

[bighairbigdrums]

I had the same problem. I solved it by turning the gain down on the mic so it didnt pick up the unwanted vibrations.

[surftex363]

im thinking the actual clip is vibrating, like a peice of the plastic?

[dubsnack]

im thinking the actual clip is vibrating, like a peice of the plastic?

I shall find out this weekend when I go get three more stands!

[surftex363]

I shall find out this weekend when I go get three more stands!

nice. if its a buzzing you may want to check your mixer, the channel could be blown a little bit

[dubsnack]

uh, lol, no that's not it but thanks.

[surftex363]

uh, lol, no that's not it but thanks.


yeah i didnt think so, cause thats not to hard to find out....

[dubsnack]

This is the preamp unit I'm using, very high quality:Presonus Digimax LT (http://www.presonus.com/digimax_lt.html)

CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN

[surftex363]

oh i thought you were still using those single channel ones, didnt you use to have those?

[dubsnack]

Yeah, I used to have a pair of presonus tubePRE's but they sucked so I sold them.

Well, they didn't totally suck but they weren't worth $100 EA imo.

[styleone]

I had the same problem. I solved it by turning the gain down on the mic so it didnt pick up the unwanted vibrations.

How come I didn't think about that before, that's obviously a clever solution ! :)

[SippyCup]

I think removing the mic from the rim will work. If your smaller rack toms move more, that means more of the energy you put into it is transferred into moving the drum, and less will be travelling through the mic as vibration. That's probably part of the reason they aren't humming like that. I'm ready to find out if it worked!

[dubsnack]

OK, back at this.

I have bought three new stands and cords for the future. But at the point I started this thread I had already recorded three songs and I’m lazy and didn’t want to re-record them so I wanted to make what I had work. I’m here to present the results for your opinion/education/ridicule…

First, this is a link to an mp3 with just the toms: http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT raw toms.mp3

You can hear the humming that I was upset over pretty good there.

Second, here is a link to an mp3 with the whole kit: http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT unmixed.mp3

Both of these mp3s are panned but not mixed. So all levels are set to 0.0dB. There is no EQ, no compression, no nothing.

Now, for the fix.

What I did was use a combination of adding and subtracting gain using the Pro Tools plug in, added gate/expanders to the toms, snare and kick, and also gave it a rough mix job but still no EQ or compression or any other shaping stuff. I think it really cleaned it up a lot:

http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT gain and gates roughmix.mp3

Please, I know I’m not the greatest player out there. I know that this is pretty simple playing. I have not been playing long and, honestly, I’m not really interested in critiques of my playing in this thread. I know what I need to work on. :o

I would very much like critiques of the recording quality, sound of my drums (I think the toms are too loose now that I listen to it, for example), the techniques I used, etc…

So, hit me with yer best shot! :p

[Demfer]

OK, back at this.

I have bought three new stands and cords for the future. But at the point I started this thread I had already recorded three songs and I’m lazy and didn’t want to re-record them so I wanted to make what I had work. I’m here to present the results for your opinion/education/ridicule…

First, this is a link to an mp3 with just the toms: http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT raw toms.mp3

You can hear the humming that I was upset over pretty good there.

Second, here is a link to an mp3 with the whole kit: http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT unmixed.mp3

Both of these mp3s are panned but not mixed. So all levels are set to 0.0dB. There is no EQ, no compression, no nothing.

Now, for the fix.

What I did was use a combination of adding and subtracting gain using the Pro Tools plug in, added gate/expanders to the toms, snare and kick, and also gave it a rough mix job. I think it really cleaned it up a lot:

http://www.thegoingratemusic.com/music/TFT gain and gates roughmix.mp3

Please, I know I’m not the greatest player out there. I know that this is pretty simple playing. I have not been playing long and, honestly, I’m not really interested in critiques of my playing in this thread. I know what I need to work on. :o

I would very much like critiques of the recording quality, sound of my drums (I think the toms are too loose now that I listen to it, for example), the techniques I used, etc…

So, hit me with yer best shot! :p

Toms are a bit dead sounding.
The snare sounds really bad to my ears. Very choked.

[dubsnack]

Toms are a bit dead sounding.
The snare sounds really bad to my ears. Very choked.

well, they are export toms you know. :p

which mix didn't you like the snare, the last one? Because honestly it's hella loose.

[Demfer]

well, they are export toms you know. :p

which mix didn't you like the snare, the last one? Because honestly it's hella loose.

Yea the last one fix. I dono what it is with the snare, its not pleasing. It might be that your wires are too tight or your reso head is looser than the wires are hugging it. Just my opinion. I want you to have a good sounding mix. I got a really nice sound out of my export toms by using G1/G1 combo tuning the reso/batter almost equal with the reso slightly tighter. I hit pretty hard too so that brought the projection and life back into them.

[dubsnack]

Oh snap, don't get me wrong I totally appreciate the opinion. Not that I'd claim to be an expert tuner, but I wonder if it has much to do with the snare mic being turned down pretty low. I would say that 70% of the sound in the last mix is coming from the overheads. So it's definitely not as "full" I guess as it could be. Lemme ask you this: do you think it sounds any better in the second link? Because that one has the sm57 up much higher in the mix.

[Demfer]

Oh snap, don't get me wrong I totally appreciate the opinion. Not that I'd claim to be an expert tuner, but I wonder if it has much to do with the snare mic being turned down pretty low. I would say that 70% of the sound in the last mix is coming from the overheads. So it's definitely not as "full" I guess as it could be. Lemme ask you this: do you think it sounds any better in the second link? Because that one has the sm57 up much higher in the mix.

Sounds similar to me, theres no real body to the sound of the snare. Its very "PLOP", It needs some more crack and fullness. Imo.

[dubsnack]

Hmmm, well I think that will definitely come out more with some eq and compression. I will definitely work on the tuning (like I ever stop, lol) and see what I can't do with some more mixing. I hear what you're talking about too, though. I might be able to just boost the gain more... I'll try to post another clip next week. Thanks for the advice!

What about the kick? You okay with that? :p

[Demfer]

What about the kick? You okay with that? :p

Like you said, It's an export *Thump* :D

[styleone]

I'm dead tired tonight and listening to the tom mix I didn't notice any huming!

I think the mix of each part isn't all that well balanced : the drums themselves are but it's just the cymbals that sound a bit overwhelming at times.

On that subject, they go "up and down " a bit too quickly so my cheap solution would be to place your overheads higher up in the air, it seems silly I know but it's always given me better results as far as natural sounding drums go.
I assume you are also micing the hihats and they could also be lowered in the mix.

As far as tuning, I'm liking the toms but I know it's a personal thing but, tune your snare higher :D,it will crack more ! And even if when you play it alone or along with the rest of the drumset you feel it's slightly higher pitched than what you want to hear, always remember that in the final mix, the only frequencies that will go through are mainly lower than what you hear when you're standing next to the drum. Tuning it higher will also make it project more, I mean Eric motherrocking Singer sig for christ's sake ! :p

[dubsnack]

Thanks for giving it a listen!!

The hum is there in the background, fer sure. I can't hear it as much on computer speakers, but it was very present in my studio monitors.

I think perhaps I just need to bring the the rest of the kit mics up in the mix. You're hearing the cymbals so prevently probably like I said because the overheads are 70% or so of the sound. I'll do some tweaking and re-post a clip. The hats, however, are not mic'd. You're getting all of it through the overheads.

For the snare... LOL, Demfer tells me it sounds choked and you say it's too low... :p

[styleone]

For the snare... LOL, Demfer tells me it sounds choked and you say it's too low... :p


Yeah, we actually both agree, I do think it sounds choked because it is tuned low, but that could only be a vocabulary matter !