Masters Vs Reference

[Ingy]

I have a pearl Masters snare but was thinking about changing to a Reference snare I don't have the chance to try a reference snare in my area so I was wondering if any members of the forum thought it really worth the change especially as the reference costs so much more here in UK

Thanks guys

[nils]

Tuning is soooo much cheaper.

[jpcdrummer]

There is no substitute for 20 plies.

[Ingy]

What generally are the differences in sound do you get from having 20 ply?

There is no substitute for 20 plies.

[jpcdrummer]

What generally are the differences in sound do you get from having 20 ply?
Enough crack to satisfy Marion Barry, enough sensativity to make you cry, enough volume to make your ears bleed.

You cannot find a better snare period. I have a 6 ply birch snare, a 6 ply maple snare, a carbon fiber snare, a free floater, and others I've forgotten about. I don't play anything but the ref snares at this point. Doubt I ever will. You will NOT be desappointed with this drum if you get it. And if you are for some reason not totally blown away, you can always sell it.

[mrpaiste]

Yeah . . . what he (jpc) said!

[broken_cymbal1]

Enough crack to satisfy Marion Barry, enough sensativity to make you cry, enough volume to make your ears bleed.

You cannot find a better snare period. I have a 6 ply birch snare, a 6 ply maple snare, a carbon fiber snare, a free floater, and others I've forgotten about. I don't play anything but the ref snares at this point. Doubt I ever will. You will NOT be desappointed with this drum if you get it. And if you are for some reason not totally blown away, you can always sell it.
DAYMN.

[AL PERCIVAL]

Being a reference snare owner, the 20-ply 25mm shell thickness may scare some away, but the reference "sound" is much more versatile than one thinks.

The first thing one notices is how very "woodsy" sounding it truly is. Tuned high and played low, its very sensitive even to ghost note playing. Tuned high and played hard it has the perfect optimal projection and crack. Tuned medium, its very phat warm and punchy with loads of natural projection. The snare doesn't choke up, its very wide open, loud but not aggressively abnoxiously loud and ringy like some other 20 ply snares. I liken it to the natual resonating sound of the MMX but on steroids. :D

Its the perfect snare to accompany the perfect mastercrafted drum kit with the same name :) ;)

[TheAlphaBreed]

I really want a Reference snare now :(

13x6.5 :D

[AL PERCIVAL]

I really want a Reference snare now :(

13x6.5 :D


:D

[TheAlphaBreed]

:D


I'd just like to tell you, that I hate you. and Wish you upon that snare getting knocked off it's snare stand and having the finish scratched! :D :D :D :D :D

[AL PERCIVAL]

I'd just like to tell you, that I hate you. and Wish you upon that snare getting knocked off it's snare stand and having the finish scratched! :D :D :D :D :D

:D :D

[veggyboy]

Well, I can't really add anything that's not already been posted other than I agree.

I've been playing over 25 years and like JPC, have a few other snares:
Tama steel 14x6.5, Tama maple (7ply, 7mm) 14x6.5, Tama maple (7ply, 7mm) 14x3.5, Pearl brass free-floating 14x3.5 and Ludwig 14x5 Black Beauty.

I just got the Ref wood 14x6.5 around a month ago and although my other snares sound great in their own right, the Ref just kills. I've never played a solid-shell snare before, but I would imagine that would be the only thing that could compare to the Ref in terms of warmth, sensitivity and projection.

Although I haven't got to the point of putting my other snares on Ebay :D (I probably won't), I really haven't played them much since getting the Ref.

[Stefan Ray]

Look at my avatar! It is a Masterworks snare in Reference specs.

[oliverdrum]

I played a 6 Piece at my local Guitar Center, and it sounded amazing. I didnt want to leave, I wanted to take it home. It was 3600 dollars. What do you do?

[jpcdrummer]

I played a 6 Piece at my local Guitar Center, and it sounded amazing. I didnt want to leave, I wanted to take it home. It was 3600 dollars. What do you do?
Um...take it home?!

[ricohorton]

the reference is a heavy snare and high in pitch due to the shell thickness imo. if you want a heavy snare thats built like tree trunk. thats the snare to get. one thing i didn't really like about the snare is that i had to push a button to unlock the throw-off don't know if there is a way around that?

[jpcdrummer]

the reference is a heavy snare and high in pitch due to the shell thickness imo. if you want a heavy snare thats built like tree trunk. thats the snare to get. one thing i didn't really like about the snare is that i had to push a button to unlock the throw-off don't know if there is a way around that?
Um...no.

[veggyboy]

the reference is a heavy snare and high in pitch due to the shell thickness imo. if you want a heavy snare thats built like tree trunk. thats the snare to get. one thing i didn't really like about the snare is that i had to push a button to unlock the throw-off don't know if there is a way around that?

That's actually a GOOD thing - the snares will never accidentally disengage, although I must say I've never had that happen before on any of my other snare drums.

I also like that the snare tension knob (on the opposite side) has a locking mechanism too.

[ricohorton]

That's actually a GOOD thing - the snares will never accidentally disengage, although I must say I've never had that happen before on any of my other snare drums.

I also like that the snare tension knob (on the opposite side) has a locking mechanism too.
yes but imo the last thing i want to be fumbling with is a lock button on snare throw off during a song that requires i throw the snares off. and the snares have never accidently thrown off on mine either. over innovative imo;)

[trommis1]

some weeks ago I visited my local store and I got to try a ref. snare (14x6,5) for the first time, and I was just blown away! It wasn't very well tuned, but it still sounded beautiful :D I'm thinking of bying one after my confirmation in may :) can't wait!

[Mikemeaner]

high in pitch??? Your kidding right? You can tune a reference to any pitch you like from high to low...........Al and jpc hit the nail on the head..........very woodsey, loud, sensative and the best sounding snare I have ever owned! If you dont own one your definately missing out!

[ricohorton]

high in pitch??? Your kidding right? You can tune a reference to any pitch you like from high to low...........Al and jpc hit the nail on the head..........very woodsey, loud, sensative and the best sounding snare I have ever owned! If you dont own one your definately missing out!
i have played them tried them and disagree. you will not get as low a pitch as a good thin wood shell imo. they will not have as wide a tuning range imo.

[sk8 or drum]

your just making things up cause your jealous

[jpcdrummer]

i have played them tried them and disagree. you will not get as low a pitch as a good thin wood shell imo. they will not have as wide a tuning range imo.
I've got some thin shelled wood snare drums I'd like to sell you...

[ricohorton]

your just making things up cause your jealous
hahahaha- i would think in view of my sig i have nothing to be jealous about? i will say that i have for example a Tama G snare 13 ply maple. i know something about the attributes of shell thickness and wood types. my G snare is higher pitch than my thin ply Yamaha BCA nouveau. the Yamaha has a very wide tuning range for a birch shell snare.

[ricohorton]

I've got some thin shelled wood snare drums I'd like to sell you...
hahaha touche. i have all the 13 ply and 6mm ply i need. ;)

[veggyboy]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but "Ricohorton" is correct.

I recently was researching solid-shelled snare drums and this is what the Operations Manager/Director of Sales of Craviotto drums told me:

"When it comes to loudness of a particular drum it is a bit of a misconception that it has anything to do with the thickness of the shell. The thickness of the shell has more to do with the fundamental note or pitch verses the overall loudness. The thicker the shell the higher pitch of a note the drum will have. This is why it can appear to be a louder drum due to the higher frequency of pitch. It gives you a great crack, and the higher pitch tends to cut through all of the lower frequencies that may be happening in the room (music ect... ect...). With a Solid shell you get the best of both worlds. Because it is a solid piece of wood these rules don't apply as directly as they do with a ply drum. Of course if I were to have a thinner shell made it would still lower the fundamental note. But you can also have a broader tuning range than most ply drums. Which you can pick and choose as to what pitch or sound you are going for. It tends to give you a little more versatility due to the sensitivity of the shell. Another good quality of a solid shell is that fact that you can play louder, and louder, and the drum will not choke out. These shells (as stated before) are very sensitive and allow the musician to have the dynamics they need to fully express their music. The drums sound spectacular at a soft volume, and also can give you a loud crack when you call upon it to do so that can be heard clear to the back of the room"

This makes sense to me because if you were to strip the drum down to its shell and tap the shell while it's suspended, the thicker shell will produce a higher fundamental pitch. This is actually what DW does with their shells when they match them for kits.

[jpcdrummer]

I disagree that the thicker shell is not louder. Yes the frequency is higher but the added mass of the thick shell also makes it stiffer, therefore absorbing less energy in deformation and allowing for longer vibration. I believe this stiffness also allows the pressure wave to be transferred more readily to the bottom head for more "snare" sound and for the pressure wave to bounce back and forth more times before it dies out.

As for plies versus solid, with pearl's compression shell, I doubt it makes much difference.

Just my $.02

[veggyboy]

I disagree that the thicker shell is not louder. Yes the frequency is higher but the added mass of the thick shell also makes it stiffer, therefore absorbing less energy in deformation and allowing for longer vibration. I believe this stiffness also allows the pressure wave to be transferred more readily to the bottom head for more "snare" sound and for the pressure wave to bounce back and forth more times before it dies out.

As for plies versus solid, with pearl's compression shell, I doubt it makes much difference.

Just my $.02

:confused: Don't shoot the messenger pally! I don't MAKE the drums - I just PLAY them! :D This is just what the dude told me.

How's the vaca?

[jpcdrummer]

:confused: Don't shoot the messanger pally! I don't MAKE the drums - I just PLAY them! :D This is just what the dude told me.

How's the vaca?
I just PLay them! HA! :D

Good vacation but we may be cut short by Ernesto.

[ricohorton]

I disagree that the thicker shell is not louder. Yes the frequency is higher but the added mass of the thick shell also makes it stiffer, therefore absorbing less energy in deformation and allowing for longer vibration. I believe this stiffness also allows the pressure wave to be transferred more readily to the bottom head for more "snare" sound and for the pressure wave to bounce back and forth more times before it dies out.

As for plies versus solid, with pearl's compression shell, I doubt it makes much difference.

Just my $.02
i think you had too many pressure waves into your brain and it wrecked your hearing? :D you are one stuborn dude. maybe try a test using your reference snare next to a thin ply snare with the same heads same depth etc. you say you have thin ply snare drums to sell so do a test with one of those. then come back and tell us what you think. ;)

[eyedrum]

I tend to agree somewhat with Veggie and Rico on this one. I don't own a Ref. snare mind you but have played several and use one on a gig one night. A 6.5 x 13. Just a beautiful drum but both the owner (a very experienced local talent) and myself agree that it sounded better in the mid-tight to tight tuning range and that it was lacking in the lower tuning range.

The old DW tap test is a little corny but just try it. On everyone of my thinner shelled snare drums the note if lower in pitch when you tap the side of the shell and the resulting drum sound is lower in pitch.

Thicker shelled drums are simply NOT going to be as active or excited when you strike the drum. The drums will be much stiffer and will conduct or move the energy more quickly between the two opposing heads with less energy being absorbed by the shell. To my ears, you hear more of the drum head and less of the shell material.

I mean play any old Gretsch or even new Gretsch Custom kit and what do you hear. A huge full, warm sounding drum.

One of my favorite snare drums is my 6mm YMCA 7 x 14. I can tune it very low for brush work or high for a nice rock or pop sound.

I think the Refs are a nice snare drum but perhaps not a versatile as a thinner shell snare drum. Just my .03 cents. ;)

[ricohorton]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but "Ricohorton" is correct.

I recently was researching solid-shelled snare drums and this is what the Operations Manager/Director of Sales of Craviotto drums told me:

"When it comes to loudness of a particular drum it is a bit of a misconception that it has anything to do with the thickness of the shell. The thickness of the shell has more to do with the fundamental note or pitch verses the overall loudness. The thicker the shell the higher pitch of a note the drum will have. This is why it can appear to be a louder drum due to the higher frequency of pitch. It gives you a great crack, and the higher pitch tends to cut through all of the lower frequencies that may be happening in the room (music ect... ect...). With a Solid shell you get the best of both worlds. Because it is a solid piece of wood these rules don't apply as directly as they do with a ply drum. Of course if I were to have a thinner shell made it would still lower the fundamental note. But you can also have a broader tuning range than most ply drums. Which you can pick and choose as to what pitch or sound you are going for. It tends to give you a little more versatility due to the sensitivity of the shell. Another good quality of a solid shell is that fact that you can play louder, and louder, and the drum will not choke out. These shells (as stated before) are very sensitive and allow the musician to have the dynamics they need to fully express their music. The drums sound spectacular at a soft volume, and also can give you a loud crack when you call upon it to do so that can be heard clear to the back of the room"

This makes sense to me because if you were to strip the drum down to its shell and tap the shell while it's suspended, the thicker shell will produce a higher fundamental pitch. This is actually what DW does with their shells when they match them for kits.
and if anybody knows wood its Craviotto. ;)
good post veggyboy :cool:

[luvmydrumz]

Sounds like little brothers arguing. What difference does it make. My Masters is plenty loud and sounds great. It is maple and cuts through the music fine. Why drag this on.
My Pearl Masters 6.5 X14 snare is thinner than my Ludwig 8X14 and the Pearl is louder.
Does it matter???????????????? No. Go with what sounds good to you.

[wood]

I play my ref every day and I have owned more snare drums than I can remember. and Im with jpc on this one. the Craviotto could not lick the bowl after my ref took a dump!! it's about getting the air to the bottom head.and the birch takes some of the high end out.

[veggyboy]

and if anybody knows wood its Craviotto. ;)
good post veggyboy :cool:

(best Elvis voice): Thank you, thank you very much...

and greens for everyone from Veggy!

[veggyboy]

Sounds like little brothers arguing. What difference does it make. My Masters is plenty loud and sounds great. It is maple and cuts through the music fine. Why drag this on.
My Pearl Masters 6.5 X14 snare is thinner than my Ludwig 8X14 and the Pearl is louder.
Does it matter???????????????? No. Go with what sounds good to you.

Well, nobody's arguing dude, we're just talkin' shop. I didn't see any :mad: smilies!

I realize everyone has different tastes, but don't you think it's interesting to discuss what drum materials, demensions, etc. make up a particular drum sound?

[veggyboy]

I play my ref every day and I have owned more snare drums than I can remember. and Im with jpc on this one. the Craviotto could not lick the bowl after my ref took a dump!! it's about getting the air to the bottom head.and the birch takes some of the high end out.

Ummm....colorfully put Woodsy! :D Makes me ummm...not want to eat for a while, I guess...

Not to stir the bowl :D , but I thought one of the attributes of birch is to ADD more high-end crack/attack/brightness? :confused:

[wood]

no birch is more of a mid range sounding wood flater, deader,

[ricohorton]

Sounds like little brothers arguing. What difference does it make. My Masters is plenty loud and sounds great. It is maple and cuts through the music fine. Why drag this on.
My Pearl Masters 6.5 X14 snare is thinner than my Ludwig 8X14 and the Pearl is louder.
Does it matter???????????????? No. Go with what sounds good to you.
different depths. there is a big difference between 6.5" and 8" and plies. you obviously don't know drum shell differences. and your master is not a reference. so mind your own business. go watch a few laurel and hardy movies. :D

[ricohorton]

i wonder what a cello would sound like with 20 ply wood? hahaha :D too heavy for one person to carry though. would need a forklift. why do you think they use thin wood plies an stringed acoustic instruments? hmmm let me see? maybe better harmonic tone range?
somebody has and somebody hasn't done their homework in regards to shell thinkness and it's effect on tone. and i see here quite a few that haven't and giving out wellmeaning misinformation. ;)

[eyedrum]

why do you think they use thin wood plies an stringed acoustic instruments?

Because they sound better. ;) You are correct Rico. Most high-end acoustic guitars have a very thin body and a one piece thin top. This allows for a full dynamic range of tones at many different tunings. Thicker (read cheaper) made acoustic guitars sound better when tuned in the higher range.

Now. How does this apply to drums and what affect does this have on the price of tea in China. :D Think of the thin guitar top (usually spruce) as the vibrating membrane...a la the drum head and the maple or mahogany or swamp ash (yuck) body as the shell. Strum the strings, the bridge vibrates and and the head (top) and body (shell) resonate together.

Bottom line...Hit the drum with a stick and if you like it buy it. :D

[mrpaiste]

why do you think they use thin wood plies an stringed acoustic instruments? hmmm let me see? maybe better harmonic tone range?

How about more resonance. Precisely the point. The shell on thin shell drums resonate more than thick shells, which adds to the tonal characteristics. However, that's where the analogy between drums and stringed instruments ends. One factor with drums that you don't have with stringed instruments is the fact you are trying to excite a second membrane, the resonant head. The other is that the tubular shape of the drum tends to project the sound away from it. If the tube is thin-walled it will resonate more, meaning it will absorb more of the sound energy. The stiffer the shell, the more energy is transferred to the bottom head, and projected through the tube. It's the same amount of energy, but it's lost in the field surounding the drum with a thin shell; focused and projected out with a thick shell. The result is at any given distance from the drum, the thick shell drum will be louder. It's a simple matter of physics.

Now, is there a point of diminishing returns? Sure there is. But to claim that all other factors being equal, a drum with a 25mm shell is not louder than one that's 7.5mm has no basis in science.

[luvmydrumz]

different depths. there is a big difference between 6.5" and 8" and plies. you obviously don't know drum shell differences. and your master is not a reference. so mind your own business. go watch a few laurel and hardy movies. :D

I know all about the different shell sizes. The 8" deep snare should be louder. It is a thicker snare than the 6.5 masters.
I know my Masters is not a Reference :rolleyes: .
I just think you guys are getting carried away with the shell thickness. 00**
And I'd rather take in the Holy Grail. Run away!!!! :D

[ricohorton]

I know all about the different shell sizes. The 8" deep snare should be louder. It is a thicker snare than the 6.5 masters.
I know my Masters is not a Reference :rolleyes: .
I just think you guys are getting carried away with the shell thickness. 00**
And I'd rather take in the Holy Grail. Run away!!!! :D
i am watching right now :D

[jpcdrummer]

why do you think they use thin wood plies an stringed acoustic instruments? hmmm let me see? maybe better harmonic tone range?

How about more resonance. Precisely the point. The shell on thin shell drums resonate more than thick shells, which adds to the tonal characteristics. However, that's where the analogy between drums and stringed instruments ends. One factor with drums that you don't have with stringed instruments is the fact you are trying to excite a second membrane, the resonant head. The other is that the tubular shape of the drum tends to project the sound away from it. If the tube is thin-walled it will resonate more, meaning it will absorb more of the sound energy. The stiffer the shell, the more energy is transferred to the bottom head, and projected through the tube. It's the same amount of energy, but it's lost in the field surounding the drum with a thin shell; focused and projected out with a thick shell. The result is at any given distance from the drum, the thick shell drum will be louder. It's a simple matter of physics.

Now, is there a point of diminishing returns? Sure there is. But to claim that all other factors being equal, a drum with a 25mm shell is not louder than one that's 7.5mm has no basis in science.
Is there an echo in here? See post 29. Ok I didn't articulate it exactly as well as mrpaiste but still, I was close!

[ricohorton]

I know all about the different shell sizes. The 8" deep snare should be louder. It is a thicker snare than the 6.5 masters.
I know my Masters is not a Reference :rolleyes: .
I just think you guys are getting carried away with the shell thickness. 00**
And I'd rather take in the Holy Grail. Run away!!!! :D
no the 8" would not be louder the 6.5 inch would be. and a thinner shell projects more than a thicker shell imo. so a thinner shell drum would be louder. haha :D

[wood]

Drums are about pushing air.You get tone from the HEADS. The thicker the wall of the drum the less energy wasted ie...air hitting the bottom HEAD and making the snares move.This crap about thin shells having more tone would be good if we did not have HEADS on our drums and we just smacked the snot out of the shell.TONE is in the HEADS!!!!

[ricohorton]

Drums are about pushing air.You get tone from the HEADS. The thicker the wall of the drum the less energy wasted ie...air hitting the bottom HEAD and making the snares move.This crap about thin shells having more tone would be good if we did not have HEADS on our drums and we just smacked the snot out of the shell.TONE is in the HEADS!!!!
its a combination of both. one with out the other is nothing. dead. your wrong. the head alone when tapped is dead. the shell by itself is just wood. but the head and the wood together make music. get it? :rolleyes:

[ricohorton]

i can get tone out of a plastic bucket or trash can. but it won't be the same quality of good wood and good heads.

[wood]

Sorry Im not wrong.Were you raised under heavy power lines?go to Pearls web site and read about the reference snare drum. Have you ever played a Ludwig Vistalite drum? not wood.or Remo drum. not wood

[luvmydrumz]

Well, nobody's arguing dude, we're just talkin' shop. I didn't see any :mad: smilies!

I realize everyone has different tastes, but don't you think it's interesting to discuss what drum materials, demensions, etc. make up a particular drum sound?

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) How's that?

[luvmydrumz]

no the 8" would not be louder the 6.5 inch would be. and a thinner shell projects more than a thicker shell imo. so a thinner shell drum would be louder. haha :D



Going with the Monty Python vibe to this thread. Wood floats right?
Would the thicker shell float more than the thin shell?


What floats?..........very small rocks. :D

[ricohorton]

Sorry Im not wrong.Were you raised under heavy power lines?go to Pearls web site and read about the reference snare drum. Have you ever played a Ludwig Vistalite drum? not wood.or Remo drum. not wood
no to the power lines. - but i think you been spun around in too many hurricanes and it joggled your brains. :D
just like i said i can get tone out of bucket. it's made of plastic. change the thickness of the acrylic shell and see what happens? same with metal shells. thinner metal shell vs thicker mm metal shells of different types- aluminum, brass, bronze, steel, stainless steel. check how metal types affect the tone of the drums just as it does with cymbals. they are not just talking tone from the heads here buddy. get your facts straight. if the shell depth, ply thickness or width of a drum had no bearing on tone then why even bother with it at all? why even have different wood types maple, birch, bubinga, oak, mahagony, etc. if it were not for the effect the wood has on tone? the reference snare is a good snare if it is the sound your going for? the question here is does a thicker shell make a drum sound higher in pitch vs a thinner shell and i say it does sport. until you can prove different? ;)

[ricohorton]

Going with the Monty Python vibe to this thread. Wood floats right?
Would the thicker shell float more than the thin shell?


What floats?..........very small rocks. :D
hahahaha lmao :D ask david letterman :D will it float will it float? :D

[wood]

I have many snares. and I hate the sound of high pitched drums.I have used my 14x6.5 Reference snare on many recording sessions and different gigs and this drum can be tuned to do anything.It's not like having a 20ply 10" tom.What size Reference snare drum do you have that is so high pitched? I have had this drum on tour all over the U.S and EU and every soundman and drummer has freaked out over how good this drum sounds. I have been playing drums over 35 years and this is by far the best drum I have ever played on.

[ricohorton]

the prof talks about snare drum shell types and the effect it has on tone. not only that but head types as well. he describes in another section as shell thickness making a drum sound drier
Prof.Sound's Drum Tuning Bible v3
from the site
http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/id14.html
What frequencies get effected? That all depends upon these combinations of variables, but is sort of boils down to this:



· Thinner drum shells resonate easier and generally lead to a very open sounding drum. A good examples of this is the Premier Genista.

· Thicker shelled drums are dryer sounding drums. A popular example of this is the YAMAHA Recording Custom series of drum.

· Drums which have counter hoops adhered inside are warm, yet have a controlled resonance. A good example is the DW series of drums.

· Drum which have no counter hoops tend to have brighter attack and more overall high-frequency resonance.


Snare Drum

http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/id3.html

[ricohorton]

I have many snares. and I hate the sound of high pitched drums.I have used my 14x6.5 Reference snare on many recording sessions and different gigs and this drum can be tuned to do anything.It's not like having a 20ply 10" tom.What size Reference snare drum do you have that is so high pitched? I have had this drum on tour all over the U.S and EU and every soundman and drummer has freaked out over how good this drum sounds. I have been playing drums over 35 years and this is by far the best drum I have ever played on.
i am glad for you that you are happy with your reference snare. and i am glad that you like the sound of it. and it does have a tuning range but not like a thin wood drum would have.

[wood]

I understand what your saying and as a rule I would agree with you. but when you add up the wood types used and the edge and the thickness of this drum it will tune very low. but yes dry and I like that in a snare drum.you have to play a few gigs on this snare drum to understand.yes it has the range of a thin drum only its louder

[ricohorton]

I understand what your saying and as a rule I would agree with you. but when you add up the wood types used and the edge and the thickness of this drum it will tune very low. but yes dry and I like that in a snare drum.you have to play a few gigs on this snare drum to understand.yes it has the range of a thin drum only its louder
well i love these discussions. just look at the shell thickness and how much space that shell thickness takes up in the drum itself. what diameter of space is actually left for for sound to move? is the drum actually a 14" or a 12" drum now due to the shells thickness? that brings up another question doesn't it? look at how much space it take up. measure the inside of the shell width and tell what you get for measurement inside the drum? how much space is lost to shell thickness? at this point i would say i agree to disagree and leave it at that. you have a right to your opinion as do i. i wish you success with your snare.
goove on
rico :-)

[wood]

same to you. it is 13" the drum is almost 1" thick. but think of the cut of the edge its the same as any drum with a 45 degree edge where the head makes contact your getting all of the vibration of the 14" heads. have you read this thread from the start? anyway I love absolute drums. ps_ professer dounut butt is talking about drums that are made of one type of wood these are not like those drums this is something new.

[ricohorton]

same to you. it is 13" the drum is almost 1" thick. but think of the cut of the edge its the same as any drum with a 45 degree edge where the head makes contact your getting all of the vibration of the 14" heads. have you read this thread from the start? anyway I love absolute drums. ps_ professer dounut butt is talking about drums that are made of one type of wood these are not like those drums this is something new.
i am saying measure from the inside ply of the head to the other side interior ply across . not the outer measurement.
if you have a drum thats outer measurement is 14". but winds up 13" inside the drum? due to 1" thickness. then in reality 14" head or not your not too far away from having a 13" snare drum rather than 14". you seem to be saying that this drum has some kind of wood that counter acts the thickness of the shell and makes it warmer richer tone? is that what your saying?

[microkit]

ok. we all seem agreed that thicker shell=higher fundamental. Perception of amplitude is frequency dependent. higher frequencies seem louder because they move faster and require less energy to move. a bass frequency can be many feet long. if you look at amp wattage for electric instruments, guitars usually don't top 100-120 watts. 50 watts is very loud. you could definitely play with a 30 watt tube amp and keep up with drums. A 30 watt bass amp is useless outside your bedroom. and if you know your engineering basics, you know that every time you double the wattage (assuming all variables are the same) you gain 3 decibels. now look at bass amps,400 watts. you need more juice to push bass. this is not even accounting for SPL, which also effects perception of amplitude. so my 16" bass drum should sound louder than a 22" due to the higher fundamental. but the 22 can be tuned lower, push more air, and that gives you that subsonic boom you feel in your chest. thinner ply shells are more resonant than thick ones. single ply steam bent, well craviotto knows his *****. what i wonder is the proerties of staves and the one piece shells they get from routing out tree trunks. and everyone, stop fighting. where's the love?

[mrpaiste]

Ok I didn't articulate it exactly as well as mrpaiste but still, I was close!

Yea, but you know me . . . I have to weigh in on a controversial issue. Besides, I was "absent" for a couple days so I had to make up for it! :)

[sk8 or drum]

microkit, how many times would you have to amplify a 22" bass drum to get that subsonic thump in your chest?

ive felt it only once at my friend's concert, it was amazing to feel the bass drum thumping inside you, it was like the beater was hitting you, its a crazy feeling!

[ricohorton]

ok. we all seem agreed that thicker shell=higher fundamental. Perception of amplitude is frequency dependent. higher frequencies seem louder because they move faster and require less energy to move. a bass frequency can be many feet long. if you look at amp wattage for electric instruments, guitars usually don't top 100-120 watts. 50 watts is very loud. you could definitely play with a 30 watt tube amp and keep up with drums. A 30 watt bass amp is useless outside your bedroom. and if you know your engineering basics, you know that every time you double the wattage (assuming all variables are the same) you gain 3 decibels. now look at bass amps,400 watts. you need more juice to push bass. this is not even accounting for SPL, which also effects perception of amplitude. so my 16" bass drum should sound louder than a 22" due to the higher fundamental. but the 22 can be tuned lower, push more air, and that gives you that subsonic boom you feel in your chest. thinner ply shells are more resonant than thick ones. single ply steam bent, well craviotto knows his *****. what i wonder is the proerties of staves and the one piece shells they get from routing out tree trunks. and everyone, stop fighting. where's the love?
who's fighting? :confused:

[ricohorton]

microkit, how many times would you have to amplify a 22" bass drum to get that subsonic thump in your chest?

ive felt it only once at my friend's concert, it was amazing to feel the bass drum thumping inside you, it was like the beater was hitting you, its a crazy feeling!
1.000 watts rms x10. :D

[Web Raines]

I wonder what the pearl 20 ply shell would sound like on a banjo? :D That would be something to see.

[mrpaiste]

who's fighting?

Agreed . . . I don't see any name calling or anything hateful. Just expressing different opinions, sometimes with conviction. :)

[ricohorton]

I wonder what the pearl 20 ply shell would sound like on a banjo? :D That would be something to see.
it be a heavy paddle :D

[wood]

Yes the choice of woods and the bearing edge darken the tone of the drum but the shell thickness make's it loud. yes if you measure from the inside wall to the inside wall it's 13" Have you gone back and read the begining of this thread yet? Take into account that there is not 1" of shell touching the head of the drum so the heads are free to vibrate.

[ricohorton]

Yes the choice of woods and the bearing edge darken the tone of the drum but the shell thickness make's it loud. yes if you measure from the inside wall to the inside wall it's 13" Have you gone back and read the begining of this thread yet? Take into account that there is not 1" of shell touching the head of the drum so the heads are free to vibrate.
well i would hope it does not have a one inch bearing edge. and i have inspected the shells and i have played the drum with G1's on it. it was very high pitched and dry sounding:D

[wood]

did you tune it that way?

[ricohorton]

did you tune it that way?
i tried different tunings. trying to get a lower warm tone out of it would just make it drier. and then higher tensioning it would get loud and ringy with a high pitch ring. i would imagine a focus X head would tame the high end ring quite a bit. some impressive rim shots can be achieved though with this snare.

[Symbolic]

I own the 14x6.5 in Twilight fade..

Yes Impressive rimshots can be had with this snare, I had a G1 on it for a while and it worked great for some acustic gigs I had but for "Rock" a setting I liked the sound of the Remo CS. Right now I have an Emperor on it and I am still messsing with the tuning on it. I am not 100% pleased with this head, so I am going to give it a week more. Im going to try an Emperor X that I have and see what happens.. I know it may seem like blasphemy to put such a thick head on there but I have an itch to use it on something..haha

I own a Masters Snare as well, and I LOVE it. So versatile,full and warm sounding. It records beautifully and looks damn sexy..haha 13x7 Masters Ltd. Bubinga..

[wood]

well my rf snare is 6.5x14 so mabey its easyer to get low end.I just use a ambassador.but I like it a little dry

[veggyboy]

I'm still a little confused when you (ricohorton) say the Ref sounded "high-pitched".

Are you saying the actual pitch (or note) sounded high, or are you talking about the tone (ie lots of high-end/treble?).

I can understand that when a drum is stripped down to its bare shell, a thicker shell will have a higher pitch than a thinner one when tapped with your knuckle - just like a thicker cymbal will sound higher than a same-sized thinner cymbal. So, it makes sense that a thinner shell will accomodate lower FREQUENCIES in regards to tone.

I just don't understand how shell thickness affects how high or low you TUNE the drum. I haven't cranked the heads on my Ref (14x6.5) up to tea kettle land yet, but I did tune it medium low and am getting a REALLY NICE fat, warm, rich and controlled crack. The overall note is G. It doesn't seem to be choking out at all. I've had my Tama 14x6.5 (all maple 7-ply, 7mm) for around 10 years and after experimenting with various tunings throughout this time, I'm sure I could tune the Ref even down to F or so.

In regards to the Ref being dry, I think it sounds perfect with the coated Amb. There's a very slight ring to it that really sounds natural. On a couple of my snares I might use a 1' piece of duct tape, but on the Ref, I didn't feel it needed anything.

[Mikemeaner]

I have the Reference 14" x 5" and I agree with veggy, I do not understand the "high pitched" description either. My snare is far from high pitched. I tune my snare to G as well and the warmth and tone is incredible. I currently use an Evans Power Center Reverse Dot batter with a Remo Ambas reso.

[mrpaiste]

I just don't understand how shell thickness affects how high or low you TUNE the drum.

I think it's because you are effectively changing the internal diameter of the drum. As we know, diameter is the primary factor concerning the tuning range, so a thick shell=smaller diamer=higher pitch. However, the thing that it doesn't account for is the fact that the bearing edge is essentially at the same spot, near the outer edge of the shell, so the stretched membrane is actually the same diameter so it SHOULD have the same range. It would just have a different timbrel makeup due to the interaction with the shell. So veg, you are right, and recohorton is right and, well EVERYONE is right. Nevermind. :D

[veggyboy]

I just don't understand how shell thickness affects how high or low you TUNE the drum.

I think it's because you are effectively changing the internal diameter of the drum. As we know, diameter is the primary factor concerning the tuning range, so a thick shell=smaller diamer=higher pitch. However, the thing that it doesn't account for is the fact that the bearing edge is essentially at the same spot, near the outer edge of the shell, so the stretched membrane is actually the same diameter so it SHOULD have the same range. It would just have a different timbrel makeup due to the interaction with the shell. So veg, you are right, and recohorton is right and, well EVERYONE is right. Nevermind. :D

Well then, excellent! Greens for everyone!

Man, with JPC on vacation, we rarely hear from him like we usually do. :(
Makes me wonder how much actual WORK he does!

[ricohorton]

I'm still a little confused when you (ricohorton) say the Ref sounded "high-pitched".

Are you saying the actual pitch (or note) sounded high, or are you talking about the tone (ie lots of high-end/treble?).

I can understand that when a drum is stripped down to its bare shell, a thicker shell will have a higher pitch than a thinner one when tapped with your knuckle - just like a thicker cymbal will sound higher than a same-sized thinner cymbal. So, it makes sense that a thinner shell will accomidate lower FREQUENCIES in regards to tone.
hence the probable reason Symbolic is not very pleased with the Emporer on his snare.
Right now I have an Emperor on it and I am still messsing with the tuning on it. I am not 100% pleased with this head, so I am going to give it a week more.
I just don't understand how shell thickness affects how high or low you TUNE the drum. I haven't cranked the heads on my Ref (14x6.5) up to tea kettle land yet, but I did tune it medium low and am getting a REALLY NICE fat, warm, rich and controlled crack. The overall note is G. It doesn't seem to be choking out at all. I've had my Tama 14x6.5 (all maple 7-ply, 7mm) for around 10 years and after experimenting with various tunings throughout this time, I'm sure I could tune the Ref even down to F or so.

In regards to the Ref being dry, I think it sounds perfect with the coated Amb. There's a very slight ring to it that really sounds natural. On a couple of my snares I might use a 1' piece of duct tape, but on the Ref, I didn't feel it needed anything.
the drum timbre is higher due to the thicker shell. it is a known fact among drum builders that a thinner shell vibrates better giving off a tone that compliments the size of the drum all things considered depth,width and head type being used. example Emperor heads give a warmer tone vs a singleply head that would have a bighter/midrange open tone. but you put an emperor on the reference snare you will have a very dry tone due to the thickness of the shell. it will be difficult get a warm timbre with that thick of a shell. the thicker shell will be very dry as discribed by the professor with an emporer doubleply head.
hence the reason why Symbolic is not totally pleased with the Emporer head on his reference snare at present.
Symbolic
Right now I have an Emperor on it and I am still messsing with the tuning on it. I am not 100% pleased with this head, so I am going to give it a week more.

[veggyboy]

the drum timbre is higher due to the thicker shell. it is a known fact among drum builders that a thinner shell vibrates better giving off a tone that compliments the size of the drum all things considered depth,width and head type being used. example Emperor heads give a warmer tone vs a singleply head that would have a bighter/midrange open tone. but you put an emperor on the reference snare you will have a very dry tone due to the thickness of the shell. it will be difficult get a warm timbre with that thick of a shell. the thicker shell will be very dry as discribed by the professor with an emporer doubleply head.
hence the reason why Symbolic is not totally pleased with the Emporer head on his reference snare at present.
Symbolic

Well then agreed!

I think most of us (including myself) thought you were saying the Ref is incapable of being TUNED low without sounding bad, or that when you heard/played a Ref it always sounded high-pitched (note-wise). You're actually talking about tone, not pitch.

[ricohorton]

Well then agreed!

I think most of us (including myself) thought you were saying the Ref is incapable of being TUNED low without sounding bad, or that when you heard/played a Ref it always sounded high-pitched (note-wise). You're actually talking about tone, not pitch.
hahaha :D i like you veggyboy.
you bring out the best in me.
definition of tone
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/Tone
definition of pitch
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/absolute+pitch+

the key word in both these definitions is tone :D
whether it be timbre, pitch, tone. it's absolute.
pitch is a position of tone whether it be low pitch, mid pitch, high pitch- low tone, mid tone, high tone for example. or a perfect note or position of tone. the note #G is a tone or pitch. ;)

[ricohorton]

you just had to go and make me get out the dictionary didn't you? it's all your fault.
veggies for everyone and you buy.

[veggyboy]

hahaha :D i like you veggyboy.
you bring out the best in me.
definition of tone
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/Tone
definition of pitch
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/absolute+pitch+

the key word in both these definitions is tone :D
whether it be timbre, pitch, tone. it's absolute.
pitch is a position of tone whether it be low pitch, mid pitch, high pitch- low tone, mid tone, high tone for example. or a perfect note or position of tone. the note #G is a tone or pitch. ;)

Well, when I think of the word "tone", I think of bass or treble - as in tone controls on a receiver (or the difference a thck/muffled or thin/open head makes).

When I think of "pitch", I think of how high or low the actual note is - as in the notes on a scale (or how loose or tight the drumheads are).

[mrpaiste]

definition of pitch
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/absolute+pitch+

Actually, that's the definition for "absolute pitch", which is synonymous with "perfect pitch". :)

[ricohorton]

definition of pitch
http://63.240.197.90/dictionary/absolute+pitch+

Actually, that's the definition for "absolute pitch", which is synonymous with "perfect pitch". :)
yes
the key word is as i descibed. (absolute) as i mentioned before.
read #1
1 : (the position of a tone) in a standard scale independently determined by its rate of vibration.

see the key word (tone) in descibing the position in a standard scale.
thanks mrpaiste

[ricohorton]

if a tone or note is determined by its rate of vibration doesn't a thinner shell then vibrate more than a thicker shell? the thin shell vibrating capabilties are much greater than a thicker shell. assisting the vibration of that note or tone is what isolation/suspension, wood type, how thick or how thin the shell is plus the choice head that impacts the vibration of tone or pitch. and not to leave out the tuning of the drum batter and reso head that governs what the drums tone will be.

[Mikemeaner]

You can use all the technical terms you like.........My 14" x 5" Reference snare sound is louder, warmer and more full bodied than that of my 14" x 5" Masterworks Carbon Ply Snare drum. Its kind of like all those things you can make work on paper, but in the real world dont hack it.

So that being said I would pick a Reference snare over a thin shelled snare any day of the week! But thats just because I have both and LOVE the sound from the Reference.

[wood]

me too mike

[styleone]

microkit, how many times would you have to amplify a 22" bass drum to get that subsonic thump in your chest?

ive felt it only once at my friend's concert, it was amazing to feel the bass drum thumping inside you, it was like the beater was hitting you, its a crazy feeling!


I've felt it several times but the worse was when I was front row facing the subwoofers at a Slayer show, when they sound checked, each bass drum stroke was beating me up and when I realised Lombardo was about to come in and play double bass at 200BPM I thought my heart would never survive :D .

SLIPKNOT1 said that with Micheal Cartellone using his new Reference kit,he didn't have to push the lows on the mixer for the bass drum to thump you,it naturally happened.

[ricohorton]

You can use all the technical terms you like.........My 14" x 5" Reference snare sound is louder, warmer and more full bodied than that of my 14" x 5" Masterworks Carbon Ply Snare drum. Its kind of like all those things you can make work on paper, but in the real world dont hack it.

So that being said I would pick a Reference snare over a thin shelled snare any day of the week! But thats just because I have both and LOVE the sound from the Reference.
well like i said to Wood before. i am glad that your happy with your snare and that you like the sound of it. it's your preference and will always be and i respect that. i am sure you can detune your head to get the warmest tone possible. but it will never have the same effect of a thinned ply shell so it's good that you have both the reference and masterworks. i myself like i said before have a tama g snare 13ply maple that has a higher tone to it than my yamaha BCA nouveau snare with the same heads. although wood type with these two drums considered the yamaha with its thin birch shell is a warmer drum than my G snare.

[wood]

having a snare made out of just one kind of wood must suck.having birch and maple help dark'n the sound and 20plys make this thing LOUD.

[ricohorton]

having a snare made out of just one kind of wood must suck.having birch and maple help dark'n the sound and 20plys make this thing LOUD.
tell that to all the drummers that use one kind of wood for the last 100 years. you've got to be kidding? suck to just have one wood? i know the drum is loud. thats what a thicker shell will do.
more on wood
http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_shells.html
Thick or Thin?


The thinner the shell, the more it will vibrate and give a rich wood tone. The volume will be less than thicker plies though.


The thicker the shell, the less if will vibrate, but the louder the drum will be, giving preference to the attack of the head rather than the tone of the shell. This is why thicker shell are used for snares and bass drums!

[ricohorton]

drum tuning bible v3
Drum Size: Shell diameter is more responsible for pitch than any other element. Depth is responsible for the duration of the note and aids in resonance. Shell thickness when thin, adds tone, body and resonance. When thick aids in projection and detracts from resonance.

[wood]

the drum tuning bible does not apply to this drum. this drum is new.If this drum was all maple yes it would sound too high pitched.also remember that the die cast rim takes some edge off this drum.you never have to use tape or moon gel on this drum. please I hope your not comparing your tama to the reference? that would be a laugh.

[ricohorton]

the drum tuning bible does not apply to this drum. this drum is new.If this drum was all maple yes it would sound too high pitched.also remember that the die cast rim takes some edge off this drum.you never have to use tape or moon gel on this drum. please I hope your not comparing your tama to the reference? that would be a laugh.
no its not a reference snare its better its a tama. now you started it sport. ;)
and here is the next Tama i have my eye's set on.
Tama Warlord Masai or the Praetorian bellbrass snare.

[wood]

Crap!! are you kidding a warlord ?? all show no go.have fun with your swarovski crystals.they should sell that drum on the home shopping network.mabey you can get it broken up in to 3 easy payments.

[ricohorton]

Crap!! are you kidding a warlord ?? all show no go.have fun with your swarovski crystals.they should sell that drum on the home shopping network.mabey you can get it broken up in to 3 easy payments.
hahaha your a funny guy Wood. :D your age is totally outweighing your intelligence with those remarks ;)

[ricohorton]

Crap!! are you kidding a warlord ?? all show no go.have fun with your swarovski crystals.they should sell that drum on the home shopping network.mabey you can get it broken up in to 3 easy payments.
Flame on now Wood hahaha :D

[wood]

the first time you take that thing out and smack it around those "crystals" will fall out like a cheap piece of junk.if the drum was any good they would not be fixing it up to look like a cheap whore.

[ricohorton]

the first time you take that thing out and smack it around those "crystals" will fall out like a cheap piece of junk.if the drum was any good they would not be fixing it up to look like a cheap whore.
now what do you have agianst whores? keep them out of it Wood. a good whore never did anything to you. now you really gone and did it. don't make me tell what you did with that pie.

[p-mack]

this thread is making my mouth water for a ref snare...
stop reading..stop reading..stop reading!

[wood]

ha, ha, I do love pie.I also love Bellingham Wa I used to live there.back in the day.

[ricohorton]

ha, ha, I do love pie.I also love Bellingham Wa I used to live there.back in the day.
a few good bands out of bellingham ;)

[ricohorton]

this thread is making my mouth water for a ref snare...
stop reading..stop reading..stop reading!
get one:D it's a good snare if the sound is what you are looking for. the other thing is the snare is heavier than three snares put together. don't drop it on your foot.

[wood]

it does make a good door stop

[AL PERCIVAL]

I've owned many high-end snares over the years, Ronn Dunnett Titanium, OCDP 20-ply, Noble & Cooley SS, Tama Artstar, Artwood, as well as some great production line snares such as Pearl FF, brass, bronze and maple, MMX, MHX and an Eric Singer snare.

For its mastercrafrmanship, versatility, warmth, tonal clarity and projection, I prefer the Pearl Reference over all the other snares. This of couse is IMHO.

There are many other snares that are truly amazing, Tama produces great snares, the Starclassic G series being one of them and they've have a great signature line. My all time favorite and sought after is an older TAMA PLN1465 Bell Brass from the early 90's.

The Praetorian bellbrass that Rico talks of sounds very interesting.

[ricohorton]

it does make a good door stop
or a hummer jack. :D

[wood]

yea the bell brass snare sounds good. but not that cheap whore drum. whats a swaroski crystal? anyway.

[ricohorton]

yea the bell brass snare sounds good. but not that cheap whore drum. whats a swaroski crystal? anyway.
better a cheap whore than a high dry *** reference. hahaha
top that Wood

[ricohorton]

hey Wood
How much wood does a wood chuck, chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?

[wood]

why does Michael Jakson love 28 year old boys?.........because there"s 20 of them!!!! bada bussssssh!!

[Symbolic]

Yes, Its quite a heavy piece.. With the lugs and the Cast hoops, and the nice thick shell.. combined with the one of the BEST finishes ever (Twilight Fade) Its a damn tank!!..

I do have to say those Warlord snares look to mickey mouse for me. Im sure they are nice, but a name and cheesy looks add to the Gimmick nicely..

Reference.. Just sounds better and yes PUN FULLY INTENDED!

:)

[ricohorton]

Yes, Its quite a heavy piece.. With the lugs and the Cast hoops, and the nice thick shell.. combined with the one of the BEST finishes ever (Twilight Fade) Its a damn tank!!..

I do have to say those Warlord snares look to mickey mouse for me. Im sure they are nice, but a name and cheesy looks add to the Gimmick nicely..

Reference.. Just sounds better and yes PUN FULLY INTENDED!

:)
my snare can beat up your snare. :D i know i played it. haha :D

[ricohorton]

you want to play a deep toned snare play the vinnie paul signature.

[wood]

no your snare cant beat up anyones snare because you played it.

[ricohorton]

no your snare cant beat up anyones snare because you played it.
i can play any snare and make it sound good. even Wood's reference snare. send it to me and i'll prove it. :D

[ricohorton]

i'm a swinger. i'm into snare swapping. :D

[Symbolic]

I got that Reference sounding superb.. I have to admit that 14x7 Yamaha sounding SWEET!

I thing I need... 14x8 Reference.... :)

[ricohorton]

I got that Reference sounding superb.. I have to admit that 14x7 Yamaha sounding SWEET!

I thing I need... 14x8 Reference.... :)

imagine how heavy that 8x14 snare would be. its already a monster and 8" of depth would make it even more monstrous. do they even make a 8x14? in the weight catagory that snare would beat all plus it would warm it up. i think you should take my Yamaha snare for couple days and i take your reference for a few days so i can play with the tuning of it. hint hint ;)

[ricohorton]

yea the bell brass snare sounds good. but not that cheap whore drum. whats a swaroski crystal? anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarovski

[Symbolic]

haha..

I didnt think you liked that snare Rico, I would be down to trade for a few days.. I do like that Yamaha..

I also have an enitrely new setup too.. I like it alot

If they made 14x8 Ref snares, i would have Ordered one of those instead that would be a dream snare..

[ricohorton]

haha..

I didnt think you liked that snare Rico, I would be down to trade for a few days.. I do like that Yamaha..

I also have an enitrely new setup too.. I like it alot

If they made 14x8 Ref snares, i would have Ordered one of those instead that would be a dream snare..
i don't. i just want to play with the tuning and see if i can't get it to sound how i would like. also that button lock on the throw-off i am not sure about? i wouldn't like having to fumble for the button when i want to throw off the strainer. i really like the Yamaha bca nouveau snare alot and recommend it highly. the snare is light and the thin birch shell resonates and maintains it's tone with those aluminum hoops. i haven't tried an MCA but i would imagine that one of those would have an even warmer tone being maple.

[wood]

I just gave my 1980 7x14 brass yamaha to a good friend for his b day he's been in seattle playing gigs and recording and he loves that drum. Years ago I took that drum to a shop were they re-chromed auto parts and had them dip it in a vat of acid to take the finish off so over the years it has darkend like a penny.I know this does not sound right but the darker that drum gets the better it sounds.

[Symbolic]

I do like that Reference Throw alot, Very smooth and lots of ajustability. The button is an awesome idea. The throwoff does not come loose or does it come off. Its no different than a normal throw, the effort it takes to push that button and pull the lever back is nonexistant. The Trick throw is the only other I really like as much as the Reference throw..

WOOD-
What band does your friend play in? Im sure that brass snare sounds killer

[wood]

well when he go's up there he plays in a band called *** trolly and some ac dc tribute band. but the name wont come to me now.

[devin_martin]

ohhhh. Bottomline is, I want an LB417 Black Beauty, a 5.5" x 14" Yamaha BCA, and a 5.5" 14" SC Bell Brass. :)

[wood]

yea kings x, I saw them some years ago. killer band!!!!

[eyedrum]

i haven't tried an MCA but i would imagine that one of those would have an even warmer tone being maple.

Hey Rico, I've got a 7 x 14 YMCA in solid black and it is by far my favorite wood drum yet. You can tune it high for a nice pop rock sound or low and fat almost like an old field drum. Yet, it retains it's tone very well. I'd like to hear the YBCA 7 x 14.

Wood... You mad man! Dipping that snare in a vat. That's a cool idea. Somewhat like all those old horn players that never polish their instrument. (oops, that sounds bad but you get the point) :D

[ricohorton]

Hey Rico, I've got a 7 x 14 YMCA in solid black and it is by far my favorite wood drum yet. You can tune it high for a nice pop rock sound or low and fat almost like an old field drum. Yet, it retains it's tone very well. I'd like to hear the YBCA 7 x 14.

Wood... You mad man! Dipping that snare in a vat. That's a cool idea. Somewhat like all those old horn players that never polish their instrument. (oops, that sounds bad but you get the point) :D
thats what my YBCA nouveau is solid black.

[veggyboy]

I just gave my 1980 7x14 brass yamaha to a good friend for his b day he's been in seattle playing gigs and recording and he loves that drum...

:o Umm, Wood, MY birthday is in April... :D

[veggyboy]

Just for the record...

I'm amazed this thread has gotten this far!

And where in God's green Earth is JPC?! He really needs to comment! After all, HE has lots of snares too!

[ricohorton]

Wood my birthday is in November 7th. put it on your calender.

[wood]

Yea jpc would be going off on this thread.

[veggyboy]

Yea jpc would be going off on this thread.

Hey Wood, check your mail! I won't be ignored! :eek:

[jpcdrummer]

Just for the record...

I'm amazed this thread has gotten this far!

And where in God's green Earth is JPC?! He really needs to comment! After all, HE has lots of snares too!
I've been fighting off the evil winds of Ernesto here in Duck, NC.

I've got a comment for you, Ref snare! Nuff said.

[pimpdrummer0789]

Reference

[ricohorton]

I've been fighting off the evil winds of Ernesto here in Duck, NC.

I've got a comment for you, Ref snare! Nuff said.
sorry about those nasty winds over there. keep warm and dry man.

[ricohorton]

send me all your reference snares and i'll see if i can tune them up nice and warm for you all. :D

[veggyboy]

send me all your reference snares and i'll see if i can tune them up nice and warm for you all. :D

No, because if we do, Ebay will suddenly have an influx of YOUR snares! :D

Well, I'm not going to get into the verbiage anymore. All I know is that at the present, my Ref (14x6.5) sounds plenty warm and rich, without muffling, and I haven't even repleced the stock heads (coated Amb batter, Amb snare-side) on it.

I can't define the "high-pitch" you refer to in regards to the Ref and I have a decent variety of snares.

But at least everyone sounds happy with their snares and that's what counts!

Okay, group hug...

[ricohorton]

No, because if we do, Ebay will suddenly have an influx of YOUR snares! :D

Well, I'm not going to get into the verbiage anymore. All I know is that at the present, my Ref (14x6.5) sounds plenty warm and rich, without muffling, and I haven't even repleced the stock heads (coated Amb batter, Amb snare-side) on it.

I can't define the "high-pitch" you refer to in regards to the Ref and I have a decent variety of snares.

But at least everyone sounds happy with their snares and that's what counts!

Okay, group hug...
touche veggyboy. just watch out for Wood's hands. you know what he does with pies. :D

[wood]

Im a pieophile.

[jpcdrummer]

send me all your reference snares and i'll see if i can tune them up nice and warm for you all. :D
Huh? I've not heard of anybody having trouble tuning a Reference snare. It is an awesome instrument unparalleled in the history of round wooden tubes. Easy to tune, incredible sounding.

Remember, it may be short, but it's fat, like a tuna can!

[ricohorton]

Huh? I've not heard of anybody having trouble tuning a Reference snare. It is an awesome instrument unparalleled in the history of round wooden tubes. Easy to tune, incredible sounding.

Remember, it may be short, but it's fat, like a tuna can!
fat like a tuna can? huh? :D you had me till the short fat tuna can desription. i was ready go out and buy one till you said that. :(

[jpcdrummer]

fat like a tuna can? huh? :D you had me till the short fat tuna can desription. i was ready go out and buy one till you said that. :(
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Like you were going to buy Pearl anything.

[Symbolic]

haha..
Im with JPC on this one..haha

[ricohorton]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Like you were going to buy Pearl anything.
what do you mean i like Pearl gear. i play a pearl p2002b and two Pearl P2000B singles. i would play a set of Pearl drums if i wanted a third kit. i have often thought of having an African Mahagony kit or a reference but without the ref snare. :D but now i would like one of the Tama SC bubinga kits. that Pearl white one with the Inlay.

[ricohorton]

haha..
Im with JPC on this one..haha
wha? how could you betray me. you know i am crazy for drums and would play anything with skins. even a reference snare. :D

[jpcdrummer]

wha? how could you betray me. you know i am crazy for drums and would play anything with skins. even a reference snare. :D
Dude, I don't know anybody, and I mean ANYBODY that has Tama, Yamaha, AND Pearl. Many brands of cymbals yes, drums, no way. Nice try but go buy a Reference snare and then come back and talk to us.

I'm not saying that people who don't own Reference can't participate in this portion of the forum. But, If you're going to malign the snare without owning it, we don't need that.

[ricohorton]

Dude, I don't know anybody, and I mean ANYBODY that has Tama, Yamaha, AND Pearl. Many brands of cymbals yes, drums, no way. Nice try but go buy a Reference snare and then come back and talk to us.

I'm not saying that people who don't own Reference can't participate in this portion of the forum. But, If you're going to malign the snare without owning it, we don't need that.
you need to relax jpc and not take things so seriously. you could give yourself a stroke. yes i have played it enough to know what that snare is all about. and yes i would consider owning a third Pearl kit. especially those that know me know that i would. and i can malign any snare i want just as others have malign my snare as you call it in this thread. it's my opinion and i have a right to it just as you do your's. no need to take it as a personal attack.
btw Gotcha :D

[Symbolic]

I got that snare sounding good tonight, as well as the whole kit.. The whole setup is very sweet.. I must play that Yamaha again, maybe this weekend we can work something out..

shaun

[ricohorton]

I got that snare sounding good tonight, as well as the whole kit.. The whole setup is very sweet.. I must play that Yamaha again, maybe this weekend we can work something out..

shaun
can't wait to play that monster of a snare agian. i work days this weekend. so call me on the cell and we can setup a meet. i would like to bring the yamaha kit out this time.
what head did you use tonight on the snare?

[ricohorton]

I got that snare sounding good tonight, as well as the whole kit.. The whole setup is very sweet.. I must play that Yamaha again, maybe this weekend we can work something out..

shaun
hey btw how are the sessions going with Safer? i am doing some sessions with "Roots to Sky" a Prog rock fusion band and digging the material.

[jpcdrummer]

you need to relax jpc and not take things so seriously. you could give yourself a stroke. yes i have played it enough to know what that snare is all about. and yes i would consider owning a third Pearl kit. especially those that know me know that i would. and i can malign any snare i want just as others have malign my snare as you call it in this thread. it's my opinion and i have a right to it just as you do your's. no need to take it as a personal attack.
btw Gotcha :D
I never say anything bad about anybody elses equipment or playing. Unless I own it, I never critique it.

Peace out brother.

[ricohorton]

I never say anything bad about anybody elses equipment or playing. Unless I own it, I never critique it.

Peace out brother.
your drawing at straws now buddy. if you really read my post instead trying to make it look like i am trashing Pearl and the Reference snare you would have some small grain of knowledge that my post was about thicker shells vs thinner shells and the effect it has on the tone of the drum. that is and still is the only thing i disagree on with the posts on this thread. i am glad as i have said to other's that you are happy with your snare and that you like the snare and the sound it produces.
Peace out brother
btw Gotcha :D

[wood]

I hate playing Tama drums I dont like anything about them I dont like the feel, the finish, the sound, the name, the smell, anything!! That being said some of my fave drummers play Tama drums. thats just the way it is.I can play almost any drums I want and if I had a choice between Starclassic and Export I'd get the Export's.some people are that way with cars you know Chevy vs Ford. Tama has those old drums made out of one type of wood.

[ricohorton]

I hate playing Tama drums I dont like anything about them I dont like the feel, the finish, the sound, the name, the smell, anything!! That being said some of my fave drummers play Tama drums. thats just the way it is.I can play almost any drums I want and if I had a choice between Starclassic and Export I'd get the Export's.some people are that way with cars you know Chevy vs Ford. Tama has those old drums made out of one type of wood.
hahaha Wood. i know what you mean. me on the other hand like to think i like different brands of drums. as i already own Tama and Yamaha my next set will probably be a nice Pearl kit. i also like to think i can play on any pedal and be able to feel comfortable with it.

[wood]

I want a set of these just to keep around awhile.I dont think they will sound as good as the RF's but they sure look cool.I hear they are a good investment.

[ricohorton]

I want a set of these just to keep around awhile.I dont think they will sound as good as the RF's but they sure look cool.I hear they are a good investment.
i would put those in a special room with a security system and gaurd dogs. :D

[Symbolic]

Secuirty system?? haha All I would need is OJ Simpson, and if anyone comes close they get cut!!

[wood]

yea thats not a kit you take to jam night.

[ricohorton]

Dude, I don't know anybody, and I mean ANYBODY that has Tama, Yamaha, AND Pearl. Many brands of cymbals yes, drums, no way. Nice try but go buy a Reference snare and then come back and talk to us.

I'm not saying that people who don't own Reference can't participate in this portion of the forum. But, If you're going to malign the snare without owning it, we don't need that.
okay guys i took jpcdrummers advice and went out and got a reference snare. and came back as the proud owner of this monster snare. man this is one heavy snare. but man is it purdy. it did have a high end ring to it so i had to play around with different heads. i finally settled for a Evans ST dry and that took care of the high end ring. although now the drum sounds very dry with the ST dry head. tell me how you like it and advise what head you find sounds the best on this drum? just take a look at the beautiful finish. comments welcome. i had my daughter take a picture of me with the snare. btw how do you like my john lennon prescription glasses? :D

[jpcdrummer]

Very nice snare mon. What kind of deal did you get? Where did you get it?

As for heads, I'm with wood on this one. I have not changed a head on either of my Ref snares yet. To tame the beast, I use some moose snot, for which I will take massive flak. But it works for me.

I do wonder if anybody has tried the EC2 Reverse Dot Snare Batter?

Congrats on the new drum. You should not be dissapointed. If you are though, put the sucker on ebay and you will easily get your money back.

Edit: Why did you change the strings to straps on the strainer? Also, did you see any difference between the Evans coated head and the coated Ambassador?

[ricohorton]

Very nice snare mon. What kind of deal did you get? Where did you get it?

As for heads, I'm with wood on this one. I have not changed a head on either of my Ref snares yet. To tame the beast, I use some moose snot, for which I will take massive flak. But it works for me.

I do wonder if anybody has tried the EC2 Reverse Dot Snare Batter?

Congrats on the new drum. You should not be dissapointed. If you are though, put the sucker on ebay and you will easily get your money back.

Edit: Why did you change the strings to straps on the strainer? Also, did you see any difference between the Evans coated head and the coated Ambassador?

well so far i am not really happy with the extremely dry sound with the Evans ST dry. even though it cut the high end ring it is now too dry with this head. i will have to try different heads on it to see what sounds best. actually i got it from Symbolic on the condition that i may return it in a week if i am not pleased with it. it is like new condition so it's basically new. Symbolic was kind enough to give that deal since he knows i don't like the high end ring when i first tried the snare. the snares were changed to puresound due to a couple of the stock metal springs breaking. i prefer straps to the strings anyway and thats what i use on the Tama snare. he said i can buy it for $400 if i like it after trying it for a week with different heads. is that a good price or do you think it is too much? i will try some other heads and let you know what i think. i am hopeing to make this work coz this is one killer looking snare and would go nice with either of my kits.

[eyedrum]

Nice snare Rico. The price does sound very fair considering the one week no obligation test drive. I'm not sure what they sell for on the street.

As far as heads are concerned and even though I don't own a Ref. snare, I would humbly suggest the Evans Genera Dry. It will eliminate some of the high end overtones but won't completely dry the drum out. I used to use an ST Dry on one of my brass snare but switched to just the Genera Dry. I really like it. I've also had good luck with just the Aquarian Texture Coated heads. Their film sounds just a little darker to my ears than say Remo or Evans. I'm like you in the fact that I like to use ribbon instead of strings on the strainer. I've also had some very good luck using the Evans Hazy 200 snare heads if you've got a snare with buzz problems.

BTW, Nice fronts! ;)

[ricohorton]

Nice snare Rico. The price does sound very fair considering the one week no obligation test drive. I'm not sure what they sell for on the street.

As far as heads are concerned and even though I don't own a Ref. snare, I would humbly suggest the Evans Genera Dry. It will eliminate some of the high end overtones but won't completely dry the drum out. I used to use an ST Dry on one of my brass snare but switched to just the Genera Dry. I really like it. I've also had good luck with just the Aquarian Texture Coated heads. Their film sounds just a little darker to my ears than say Remo or Evans. I'm like you in the fact that I like to use ribbon instead of strings on the strainer. I've also had some very good luck using the Evans Hazy 200 snare heads if you've got a snare with buzz problems.

BTW, Nice fronts! ;)
hey thanks man. i may have a Genera Dry in my storage to try so i will look. you know these snare heads tend to collect. i also think i have a studio x coated i can try. i will have to get a hazy 200 as i don't have one of those. i do have Aq hi-performance snare bottom i could try.

[Symbolic]

Wow.. Thats a killer Snare Rico It sure looks sharp!.. Good Idea using the straps rather than the strings.. ;)

You should experiment with different heads too..

[ricohorton]

ok i just tried a Aq Studio X Coated on the snare and it sounds great. it controls some of the high end ring but not so much that it takes away from the tone of the drum and it doesn't sound super dry with this head as well. i also have an Aq hi-energy head that i haven't tried yet that i may try on this drum. i am partial to Aquarian heads so i am glad the Studio X sounds good on this drum. i haven't tried one of my Aq Focus X heads yet but my guess it will be too dry for this drum as well.

[ricohorton]

Wow.. Thats a killer Snare Rico It sure looks sharp!.. Good Idea using the straps rather than the strings.. ;)

You should experiment with different heads too..
thanks for letting me do a test drive before buy Symbolic. your a great guy and a good drummer friend for giving a deal on this snare. so far the Studio X has sound the best on this snare. i am sure you would like the sound of it. after playing around with my Yamaha kit at your rehearsal studio i decided to not sell it. if anything i will add another tom to the kit and go with the one up two down.

[wood]

Ok, you know there are just some guys who have it in there head that they want there snare drum to not have any ring in it. Im one of those guys who wants some ring.I want some snare buzz too. SOME!! To me the thing is why buy high end gear and than kill it?

[ricohorton]

Ok, you know there are just some guys who have it in there head that they want there snare drum to not have any ring in it. Im one of those guys who wants some ring.I want some snare buzz too. SOME!! To me the thing is why buy high end gear and than kill it?
correct - but this is way too much high end over-ring than is desired. right now with the Studio X on there i have a good middle ground between having a good fundamental tone of the drum with just a touch of ring. not too much.

[wood]

good!! now get a good buzz.

[ricohorton]

good!! now get a good buzz.
hahaha :D off a Bong?

[wood]

Shure why no.What ever takes.

[jpcdrummer]

Shure why no.What ever takes.
"puff puff give, puff puff give, you phuckin' up the rotation!"

Smokey

[ricohorton]

"puff puff give, puff puff give, you phuckin' up the rotation!"

Smokey
"puff puff caugh caugh puff puff next."

[veggyboy]

I hate playing Tama drums I dont like anything about them I dont like the feel, the finish, the sound, the name, the smell, anything!! That being said some of my fave drummers play Tama drums. thats just the way it is.I can play almost any drums I want and if I had a choice between Starclassic and Export I'd get the Export's.some people are that way with cars you know Chevy vs Ford. Tama has those old drums made out of one type of wood.

Damn Wood! I come back from a really nice weekend just to read this sheeattt? :(

That hurt man, deep down inside! Now apologize!

[ricohorton]

i measured the inside of my drum shell and it's like having a 12" snare drum with a 14" head. WOW :eek:

[veggyboy]

i measured the inside of my drum shell and it's like having a 12" snare drum with a 14" head. WOW :eek:

So...have you sold all your other snares yet? :D

[Sprizzle]

im going to go with reference

*drum rack club*

[ricohorton]

So...have you sold all your other snares yet? :D
not totally sold yet. i still like my Yammy BCA nouveau. it's just a different snare with a different sound. know what i mean? nothing wrong with that.

[jpcdrummer]

not totally sold yet. i still like my Yammy BCA nouveau. it's just a different snare with a different sound. know what i mean? nothing wrong with that.
Keep playing, we'll be watching ebay!

[ricohorton]

Keep playing, we'll be watching ebay!
well the Ref is sounding good today with the Studio X texture coated head. but don't think you'll be seeing my other snares sold on Ebay. never can have enough snares you know. ;)

[jpcdrummer]

well the Ref is sounding good today with the Studio X texture coated head. but don't think you'll be seeing my other snares sold on Ebay. never can have enough snares you know. ;)
Now with THAT I can agree with you!

[Symbolic]

I love snares, they are a drummers best friend..haha I am liking that BCA snare alot. I am still farting around with different tunings. Its very versatile thus far, I am kinda curious how "your" REF snare is sounding..hahaha I bet that Studio X is working well..

Im going to end up selling one of my snares, Either the Reference or The 14x6 DW Cast Bronze.. Depending on what makes my ears happy.. I know My masters snare does for sure!!

[ricohorton]

I love snares, they are a drummers best friend..haha I am liking that BCA snare alot. I am still farting around with different tunings. Its very versatile thus far, I am kinda curious how "your" REF snare is sounding..hahaha I bet that Studio X is working well..

Im going to end up selling one of my snares, Either the Reference or The 14x6 DW Cast Bronze.. Depending on what makes my ears happy.. I know My masters snare does for sure!!
hey but your selling me the ref snare if i decide i want it. you should sell the bronze dw and get a pearl masterworks snare. ;)

[wood]

you know your buying the Reference Rico. yes you know you are.

[ricohorton]

you know your buying the Reference Rico. yes you know you are.
Wood - do you mean i am hypnotized by the reference snares beckoning call? :D

[Symbolic]

Haha.. Damn you Rico getting my mind in another direction again.. hahaha I am eyeing a 20" 2002 Ride on Ebay now.. See what you have made me do, NO MORE HANGING OUT!.. lol

[ricohorton]

Haha.. Damn you Rico getting my mind in another direction again.. hahaha I am eyeing a 20" 2002 Ride on Ebay now.. See what you have made me do, NO MORE HANGING OUT!.. lol
hahaha i thought you would like the beckoning call of a 20" Paiste 2002 ride. it really acts well as a crash/ride. ;)
it's my understanding that Paiste Cymbals are matched from master cymbal. and the clone cymbals are hatch from the mothership Paiste and become the Knights of Cydonia's Shield of Armor. :D

[wood]

I just got a 20"k custom hybrid. sweeeeeeet! and a shrubery not large but nice. neep! neep!

[Niles]

hahaha i thought you would like the beckoning call of a 20" Paiste 2002 ride. it really acts well as a crash/ride. ;)
it's my understanding that Paiste Cymbals are matched from master cymbal. and the clone cymbals are hatch from the mothership Paiste and become the Knights of Cydonia's Shield of Armor. :D
Muse fan?

[ricohorton]

Muse fan?
they are ok. i just know the song.

[ricohorton]

bump
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h303/ricohorton/bump.jpg

[jpcdrummer]

Wow, nice car.

[ricohorton]

Wow, nice car.
it has to be a BMW